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  1. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 5:48pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrh80 View Post
    Yep, sometimes I get sick of big powerlifters who struggle to do a few basic pullup reps. I am impressed by heavy lifts, but my focus is on mastering my bodyweight which I think is vital for anyone doing martial arts. This of course does favour lighter guys but also forces the bigger guys to loose fat. Whatever does it for you I guess, both are examples of strength remembering strength is a skill.
    Bit of an odd thing to be 'sick of' considering they're still remarkably strong. Increased bodyweight to the point bw exercises are unmanageable can be the sacrifice that needs to be made to achieve their level of strength. Hell, if I didn't have to keep my weight down I'd totally get into powerlifting.

    'mastering your bodyweight' is never necessary in any martial arts form. I know boxers who can't do a single chinup but could knock your teeth out, and BJJ players who have no discernable muscle to speak of, yet would make you or me look like a complete fool.

    high relative strength is a bonus, but it's not the only way to train and it certainly isn't 'vital'.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  2. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 6:54pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    Bit of an odd thing to be 'sick of' considering they're still remarkably strong. Increased bodyweight to the point bw exercises are unmanageable can be the sacrifice that needs to be made to achieve their level of strength. Hell, if I didn't have to keep my weight down I'd totally get into powerlifting.

    'mastering your bodyweight' is never necessary in any martial arts form. I know boxers who can't do a single chinup but could knock your teeth out, and BJJ players who have no discernable muscle to speak of, yet would make you or me look like a complete fool.

    high relative strength is a bonus, but it's not the only way to train and it certainly isn't 'vital'.
    When I say "sick of" it is a couple of my training partners who powerlift, not implying all powerlifters are like this. Also, on internet forums guys saying a guy who benches X kg is stronger than a guy who does Y number of one arm pushups. Its all strength whatever floats your boat none is better than the other. Despite, what people say there is carryover between bodyweight training and weights thats all I am trying to say. Obviously, if a guy wants a huge bench press then he should bench press to train for this, a few pushups to warm up before his sets will be good for him. If he can't access some weights or is bored a few pushup variations that are challenging for him won't hurt.

    Yes, you can be weak and good at bjj, won't comment on boxing as I don't do it. I have been schooled by many guys weaker and less althletic than me. When I say master bodyweight for martial arts I don't really mean things like an iron cross or one arm chinups. I mean stuff like basic pushups (I do dive bombers to warm up and mobilize my spine), bodyweight squats, pullups and joint mobility stuff. My reasoning is that some strength and mobility training is needed for injury prevention and for longevity.If a guy can't do a correct ass to grass bodyweight squat (usually a mobility issue), he is at risk of injury in a grappling martial art. In my opinion you need mobility and strength sometimes at angles and muscle groups different to those you encounter squatting, DL and benching. In this regard bodyweight exercises and movements are excellent for this; of course there a weighted options as well.

    Most martial arts guys I know do some sort of strength training, just because a guy isn't ripped does not mean he does no strength training. I am not implying relative bw strength is greater than any other strength type or not to step into the ring if you cant do a chinup, it is just my focus at the moment.
  3. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 7:03pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BW exercises are cool fun and all that, but if you wanna get strong, you lift big, as opposed to fucking around with various forms of press ups.

    in fact at a lower BW bodyweight exercies become even less useful. i can do a million press ups before i get tired (well maybe not a million but a few) which gives me **** all gain. im better off doing bench variations.

    when i train clients for strength its all about the big 3, squat, deadlift and bench. everything else is supplementary. i have yet to fail anyone with this kind of focus- yet i see a lot of people in the gym who **** around for years and get nowhere doing loads of other things. not that BW exercises are bad, but they also fall into the supplementary catalogue, imo. if you arent squatting balls to the floor with your eyes popping out your mouth youre wasting your time
  4. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 7:34pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    BW exercises are cool fun and all that, but if you wanna get strong, you lift big, as opposed to fucking around with various forms of press ups.

    in fact at a lower BW bodyweight exercies become even less useful. i can do a million press ups before i get tired (well maybe not a million but a few) which gives me **** all gain. im better off doing bench variations.

    when i train clients for strength its all about the big 3, squat, deadlift and bench. everything else is supplementary. i have yet to fail anyone with this kind of focus- yet i see a lot of people in the gym who **** around for years and get nowhere doing loads of other things. not that BW exercises are bad, but they also fall into the supplementary catalogue, imo. if you arent squatting balls to the floor with your eyes popping out your mouth youre wasting your time
    Doing the big 3 is probably the quickest and easiest way to get strong, no disagreement there. But, if for whatever reason you don't want to do this, bodyweight alternatives can get you very strong, though are limited with squatting leg strength. Can do lots of pushups but want to get stronger, what about one arm pushups with feet shoulder width apart, planche pushups, etc... Bodyweight stuff can be changed to be harder by varying the leverage, tempo, stability etc.. but is harder to quantify exact gains and you cant cycle loads like with barbells.

    I don't like gyms and don't have a room for a home gym with weights so I do a lot of bodyweight stuff. I also use bands, kettlebells and sandbags and combine these with bodyweight exercises such as weighted chinups and pistols. For martial arts I think someone should have some proficiency in bodyweight exercises, I don't mean they should necessarily do just bodyweight stuff. Coach Sommer over at Gymnastics bodyweight forum has some examples of carryover between bodyweight and weights. Really depends on your goals, but I have made consistent strength gains with bodyweight exercise progressions.
  5. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 7:39pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrh80 View Post
    When I say "sick of" it is a couple of my training partners who powerlift, not implying all powerlifters are like this. Also, on internet forums guys saying a guy who benches X kg is stronger than a guy who does Y number of one arm pushups. Its all strength whatever floats your boat none is better than the other.
    It doesn't matter how many one arm pushups you can do, if you can't lift as much as another guy, excluding technical limitations you're just not as strong.

    If you want to be strong you lift heavy, bodyweight isn't enough unless you weigh at least 90kg.

    So yes, one is better than the other, and that one is weight lifting over bodyweight exercises.

    Bodyweight exercises are fine for building some strength, endurance and muscle mass, they're just not as good for building strength as adding more weight. I personally do quite a bit of bodyweight work with gymnastic rings and such, and I'm sure it's added stability and balance to my training, but there is no way they could ever replace weights if I want to be strong.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  6. Coeloptera is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 10:52pm


     Style: Krav Maga

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrh80 View Post
    This of course does favour lighter guys but also forces the bigger guys to loose fat. Whatever does it for you I guess, both are examples of strength remembering strength is a skill.
    Tell me about it. 15.7% and falling, but slowing. I'm shooting for 12%.

    Of course as I get stronger, I'll get heavier again, but less of it will be "dead weight".

    - Coeloptera
  7. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2011 1:03am


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    It doesn't matter how many one arm pushups you can do, if you can't lift as much as another guy, excluding technical limitations you're just not as strong.

    If you want to be strong you lift heavy, bodyweight isn't enough unless you weigh at least 90kg.

    So yes, one is better than the other, and that one is weight lifting over bodyweight exercises.

    Bodyweight exercises are fine for building some strength, endurance and muscle mass, they're just not as good for building strength as adding more weight. I personally do quite a bit of bodyweight work with gymnastic rings and such, and I'm sure it's added stability and balance to my training, but there is no way they could ever replace weights if I want to be strong.

    I agree that barbell training is the probably the quickest and easiest way to get strength. But to say that you can not get respectable strength via bodyweight alone is not true. They are just tools use one or all or any combination of them. Interesting that boxing trainer Ross Enamait (rosstraining.com) believes you can get good strength through bodyweight if you choose and his book Never Gymless has some incredible displays of strength.

    Resistance is resistance and strength is largely specific to the application. You are right in that certain body weight exercises will reach a limit before you need to add weight, pistols probably being the first. Although you could work explosive strength by doing jumping pistols increasing the height as you improve. For most martial artists doing full range pistols, slowly and controlled over a full range of motion is probably enough squatting leg strength. If you want more you could do barbell squats or keep adding weight to the pistols.

    However, others such as HSPU there really is virtually no limit, you could work up to a full range freestanding one arm HSPU and even this would not be the hardest variation. That is equivalent to pressing over 95% of your bodyweight overhead with one hand; that is if the core and the rest of your body can handle it. By varying parameters like tempo, leverage, stability and one arm vs two you can find a variation that is hard.

    Who is stronger a 75kg world class gymnast or a 75kg world class powerlifter? They are both strong, in bodyweight obviously the gymnast with a barbell the powerlifter, but I am betting with some training the gymnast would put up some decent numbers.
  8. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2011 5:09am

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrh80 View Post
    I agree that barbell training is the probably the quickest and easiest way to get strength. But to say that you can not get respectable strength via bodyweight alone is not true. They are just tools use one or all or any combination of them. Interesting that boxing trainer Ross Enamait (rosstraining.com) believes you can get good strength through bodyweight if you choose and his book Never Gymless has some incredible displays of strength.
    Firstly, I never said that. I said that you won't get anywhere near as strong using just bodyweight as you will lifting heavy weights. This is true for the vast majority of non-genetic freaks, and so there is no argument with it.

    I have read Ross Enamait's books, and yes he has some cool ideas and I'd like my boxing coach to be a little more like him, but he still lifts weights. Last I read he was going for a 500lb deadlift.

    Resistance is resistance and strength is largely specific to the application. You are right in that certain body weight exercises will reach a limit before you need to add weight, pistols probably being the first. Although you could work explosive strength by doing jumping pistols increasing the height as you improve. For most martial artists doing full range pistols, slowly and controlled over a full range of motion is probably enough squatting leg strength. If you want more you could do barbell squats or keep adding weight to the pistols.
    The thing is, what is 'enough' leg strength? In most sports you'll see the results of increased strength and power of the lower body, I would suggest that the only limit should be how strong you can get while remaining in your weight category; for this purpose you need weights.

    Who is stronger a 75kg world class gymnast or a 75kg world class powerlifter? They are both strong, in bodyweight obviously the gymnast with a barbell the powerlifter, but I am betting with some training the gymnast would put up some decent numbers.
    That reasoning sounds like something Enamait would cook up. and it's fallacious. The powerlifter is stronger, hands down. The Gymnast simply has higher relative strength, and a **** ton of gymnastic skill with which to apply it. There is no question who is stronger. If the Gymnast lifted weights (which many do in order to develop their strength according to zatiorsky's Science and Practice of Strength Training) it would not suddenly make him unable to to his sport, unless his strength training was insufficient or he allowed his weight to increase too much.

    EDIT: I know you like to do bodyweight exercises, and I know you don't have access to gym equipment as you posted earlier; I don't disagree with bodyweight training as a method, I simply don't agree that it is sufficient to make you as strong as somebody with an equally comprehensive routine, but uses weights instead. There really is no reason for this discussion to continue unless you're going to refute that one point.
    Last edited by MMAMickey; 12/20/2011 5:12am at .
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  9. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2011 10:52am


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    So, counterpoint is that gymnasts who've never touched a barbell in their live can typically pull greater than double bw the first time they're called to deadlift.

    The counter to that counterpoint is that training like a competitive gymnast is a fuckload harder than just doing starting strength for 9 months, so maybe you should pick the easy way toward that goal.
  10. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2011 12:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by St. Sleaze View Post
    I did stronglifts for about a year following the program religiously. Eventually I got to the point where I couldn't push past a plateau.

    I tried the methods layed out in the program decreasing by 10% (if I remember correctly first) than building back up, I still got stuck then I decreased by 30% and worked back up and plateaued again. I believe I tried this more than one time with no luck at pushing past my PR. Eventually due to my schedule I had to move on to a program that I could knock out in 30mins or less.

    That is my experience with stronglifts. Perhaps I wasn't eating enough or maybe I was working too much and not resting enough between a busy school and work schedule. Eventually i'll try stronglifts again and hopefully break my previous PRs. As far as results? My legs gained quite a bit of size as i'd never done any leg work like that before but I don't feel like the rest of my upper body appearance changed very much but I did increase my strength and what I could lift by quite a lot.
    It sounds like you may have maxed out on SL 5x5. It is a beginner program and the directions I have say to switch to a 3x5 once you've gone through the plateau > deload > plateau cycle a couple times without gains. Once you max that, then you switch to 1x5.

    I've only been lifting for a couple months (SL5x5) so this thread has been enlightening.
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