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  1. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/18/2011 7:49pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^I agree with that. I was using the example of wall pushups as a comparison to not doing the full range of motion, i.e. it's cheating.

    The smith machine is a good analogy. I only have one quick question; I've heard the smith machine can be bad for your joints because the plane of movement is unnatural is this true?
  2. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/18/2011 7:57pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by St. Sleaze View Post
    I'd disagree, yes you are pressing your full bodyweight just not through a full range of motion. Kind of like the guys at my gym that jump in the squat rack (which is rare b/c most favor leg press machine) load up 4 45 plates and squat to 45 deg. or less.

    Most people who can do HSPUs have to cheat by using the wall. I can do them using the wall for 4-6 reps, it's really not that hard.

    Edit: I went back and reread the post MMAMickey quoted. I think I get where MM was going with it. With the HSPU compared to press if you aren't lowering your head below your shoulders you aren't completely pressing your full weight. It would be like doing an overhead press without bringing the bar all the down to your chest with each rep.
    I am talking about the ones MMAMickey is talking about. When people say the can do X number of HSPU what they usually mean are headstandPUs (hands on the floor going down till your head touches the ground). Yes, putting your feet on the wall does take some of the weight off, even a free standing HSPU is not 100% as you are not pushing your foreams or hands. I don't do the free balance version yet as I want to get stronger without training my balance.

    Some factors that change it are:

    1. How close are your hands to the wall, the further apart the easier. I tend to do them 4 inches from the wall. You can also do a chest to the wall version which is harder.
    2. How far are the hands spaced from each other, the closer they are the harder it is.
    3. Are the heels lightly touching the wall and sliding (I wear socks on a painted wall) or do you walk you feet up and down as you go.
    4. How much back arch do you have, a perfecting straight back is much harder than an arched back. Effectively the whole body is straight.

    If you can do 4-6 full range HSPUs you are strong. Can you military press your body weight?

    If you want you can play with the variations above, work on a one handed version or even do them on gymnastic rings.
  3. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/18/2011 9:26pm


     Style: FMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrh80 View Post
    I am talking about the ones MMAMickey is talking about. When people say the can do X number of HSPU what they usually mean are headstandPUs (hands on the floor going down till your head touches the ground). Yes, putting your feet on the wall does take some of the weight off, even a free standing HSPU is not 100% as you are not pushing your foreams or hands. I don't do the free balance version yet as I want to get stronger without training my balance.

    Some factors that change it are:

    1. How close are your hands to the wall, the further apart the easier. I tend to do them 4 inches from the wall. You can also do a chest to the wall version which is harder.
    2. How far are the hands spaced from each other, the closer they are the harder it is.
    3. Are the heels lightly touching the wall and sliding (I wear socks on a painted wall) or do you walk you feet up and down as you go.
    4. How much back arch do you have, a perfecting straight back is much harder than an arched back. Effectively the whole body is straight.

    If you can do 4-6 full range HSPUs you are strong. Can you military press your body weight?

    If you want you can play with the variations above, work on a one handed version or even do them on gymnastic rings.
    I can do 4-6 HSPUs using the wall, I wouldn't say they are full range though. I use a pair of those pushup handle thingies so I get a little closer full range of motion but not quite. I can seated military press about 140 for 5x5 comfortably I weigh about 165. A standing overhead press is a different story and I can't lift nearly that much.
  4. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/18/2011 10:00pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe the issue with your standing overhead press is not getting full body tightness; generally the seated press is harder than the standard version; at least for me. Try doing some plank variations just before you press to get a feel of full body tension when you press making sure to also tense you legs and glutes.

    If you work up to doing a full range HSPU with good form it should increase your overhead press as long as you have a strong core. I have used HSPU variations as plateau busters for my overhead pressing with good results. A full range HSPU is much harder than the headstand version.
  5. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 4:34am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Boxing.MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by St. Sleaze View Post
    ^I agree with that. I was using the example of wall pushups as a comparison to not doing the full range of motion, i.e. it's cheating.

    The smith machine is a good analogy. I only have one quick question; I've heard the smith machine can be bad for your joints because the plane of movement is unnatural is this true?
    It's certainly true for me, but I have an old knee injury which lets me know reasonably quickly if something is acting unnaturally on my joints; I expect some people with a higher tolerance may notice no problems whatsoever.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  6. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 7:20am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coeloptera View Post
    But multiples of body weight is a meaningless benchmark taken by itself.
    It's a useful benchmark as a personal goal... and if you compete in a sport with weight classes (i.e. combat sports or whythefuckareyouhereotherwise) it's an extremely useful benchmark.
  7. Coeloptera is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 8:21am


     Style: Krav Maga

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrh80 View Post

    The fact that big guys find it hard to do things like pullups is a good reason to do them, don't you think. Also, "only 2.25 to 3 x bodyweight", LOL.
    Well, I do. The fact that I can get my weight off the ground and do reps impressed me the first time I managed it.

    But the "only" was sort of a joke. I was trying to demonstrate that multiples of body weight don't mean that much when taken by themselves. The most powerful humans in the world are only doing 3 times their own weight, and yet they are as strong as people can currently get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    It's a useful benchmark as a personal goal... and if you compete in a sport with weight classes (i.e. combat sports or whythefuckareyouhereotherwise) it's an extremely useful benchmark.
    I'll agree about weightclasses. But my point actually was that just saying "I can overhead press my bodyweight" doesn't mean much unless you take other factors into consideration. A 150lbs man doing it is in very good shape, a 250lbs man doing it is scary. I can lift my 150lbs friend over my head, he can't return the favour even though he is much better at moving his own weight around than I am.

    So I think we actually agree on this point. In context it does matter a lot. By itself, it depends what you're going for.

    - Coeloptera
  8. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 9:17am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wasn't disagreeing, I was filling in the blanks.
  9. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 5:23pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coeloptera View Post
    Well, I do. The fact that I can get my weight off the ground and do reps impressed me the first time I managed it.

    But the "only" was sort of a joke. I was trying to demonstrate that multiples of body weight don't mean that much when taken by themselves. The most powerful humans in the world are only doing 3 times their own weight, and yet they are as strong as people can currently get.

    - Coeloptera
    Yep, sometimes I get sick of big powerlifters who struggle to do a few basic pullup reps. I am impressed by heavy lifts, but my focus is on mastering my bodyweight which I think is vital for anyone doing martial arts. This of course does favour lighter guys but also forces the bigger guys to loose fat. Whatever does it for you I guess, both are examples of strength remembering strength is a skill.
  10. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 5:27pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by St. Sleaze View Post
    ^I agree with that. I was using the example of wall pushups as a comparison to not doing the full range of motion, i.e. it's cheating.

    The smith machine is a good analogy. I only have one quick question; I've heard the smith machine can be bad for your joints because the plane of movement is unnatural is this true?
    Yes it is unnatural and you should avoid it.
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