*Spoilers* UFC 140: Jones vs Machida - Mir, Tito, Hominick vs Korean Zombie, Nog

**Devil** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 1:48pm

Originally Posted by Valiss

Man, sometimes Mir just confuses me. So where does this put him? Gate keeper? Contender for the belt? Somewhere in between?

I think it's pretty simple at the moment. He probably needs to win two more fights to wear the belt. Almost everyone will say he can't do it and that's very possible. Honestly, I think he's got about as good a chance as anyone. Especially when you start factoring in injuries, etc.

**** happens. Sometimes attrition plays in a fighter's favor. Mir's a veteran and has the offense to beat anyone on any given night. I could see him sticking around and suddenly finding himself with a title fight in his lap. I personally think it would be awesomely hilarious. **** it, why not? He's paid his dues.

***Tranquil Suit*** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 3:03pm

I just don't see Mir wininng against higher level competition than Big Nog. Nah, he won't be getting top contender position. Unless by some miracle wave of mass injury.

**Vieux Normand** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 3:04pm

Originally Posted by Scut Farkus

Agreed, definitely. Obviously, the best case scenario is a fighter who has both. Jones, GSP, etc.

To show some justice to the two aforementioned whiners (gotta, y'know, be just to whiners or it...just...isn't...FAIR), I didn't hear either of them trot out the usual false dichotomies ("size versus skill", "brains or brawn") when discussing Jones.

It may be that, given the financial potential, they envisage a pro MMA where physiological freaks-of-nature are scouted out at an early age, brought into a club and taught the skills and mindset necessary to compete.

The difference is, they seemed to be lamenting this scenario. I was just thinking meh--pro sports as usual.

At some point, the size and skills may be so similar that it'll be like watching rock'em-sock'em robots. I might find myself wishing for a return to UFC1/Vale Tudo rules, just to make it interesting again.

**Devil** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 4:07pm

Originally Posted by Trinkle Soot

I just don't see Mir wininng against higher level competition than Big Nog. Nah, he won't be getting top contender position. Unless by some miracle wave of mass injury.

I wouldn't bet money that he'll do it, for sure. I just think it's in the realm of possibilities.

**Neo Sigma** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 4:33pm

You can never say never, but odds are pretty against Mir ever holding the belt again. Yeah, that's three wins in a row, but he looked pretty bad in all of them- did nothing vs. Crocop until the end, gassed horribly against Nelson, and was getting clobbered by a past-his-prime Nog and also looked like he was on the way to gassing. That doesn't really say "serious contender".

You have to look at the kind of guys at the top he'd be facing in the title picture. JDS, Velasquez, Overeem, and Lesnar all have more than enough firepower to make him curl into a ball and cry. He's won in unspectacular fashion against lower-mid tier guys and got completely crushed when he went up a level(Carwin). It doesn't really inspire a lot of confidence in his ability to handle the big dogs. His cardio is suspect, his wrestling isn't great, and his striking is crap(they can say "improved" all they want, going from horrible to below average isn't impressive). The top levels are pretty much exclusively populated by powerful wrestlers and hard punchers who are pretty much all cardio machines.

People said Fedor only looked good because the HW division was weak at the time(bullcrap), but really, Mir benefited the most from the shitty UFC HW era more than anyone else. It's not that hard to look elite against Wes Sims.

**karma2343** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 4:43pm

Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli

My thoughts on the PPV:
I'll go further out on my limb and say that Nog would have never tapped unless Mir went for the break.

nice choice of words when describing that fight lololololol

Anyway, I see Mir probably fighting Velasquez for the next contender spot after the winner of Lesnar/Overeem, because who else is really left? Of course Mir will almost certainly lose to Velasquez, and at that point I think he will have solidified his status as a gatekeeper.

**Devil** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 4:47pm

Originally Posted by Neo Sigma

You can never say never, but odds are pretty against Mir ever holding the belt again. Yeah, that's three wins in a row, but he looked pretty bad in all of them- did nothing vs. Crocop until the end, gassed horribly against Nelson, and was getting clobbered by a past-his-prime Nog and also looked like he was on the way to gassing. That doesn't really say "serious contender".

You have to look at the kind of guys at the top he'd be facing in the title picture. JDS, Velasquez, Overeem, and Lesnar all have more than enough firepower to make him curl into a ball and cry. He's won in unspectacular fashion against lower-mid tier guys and got completely crushed when he went up a level(Carwin). It doesn't really inspire a lot of confidence in his ability to handle the big dogs. His cardio is suspect, his wrestling isn't great, and his striking is crap(they can say "improved" all they want, going from horrible to below average isn't impressive). The top levels are pretty much exclusively populated by powerful wrestlers and hard punchers who are pretty much all cardio machines.

People said Fedor only looked good because the HW division was weak at the time(bullcrap), but really, Mir benefited the most from the shitty UFC HW era more than anyone else. It's not that hard to look elite against Wes Sims.

All true. However, if you want to read some funny material, go back to any one of the fight prediction threads ever posted on Bullshido. To save you some time I'll summarize - everyone is full of ****. So the idea of Mir winning the belt is really no sillier than the idea of Dos Santos keeping it, or Lesnar winning it back, or Cain winning it back, or Overeem winning it.

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 6:27pm

Originally Posted by Sirc

He's not. I bet he copied paste this from some other forum.

You know what? I'm going to cling to that tiny little shred of dignity I have left, and NOT get into a catfight with you over JNP's affections.

Moving On!

As far as Frank Mir's future in the heavyweight division, he's an interesting case. He looks pretty vulnerable any time he gets pressed against the cage (Carwin, Nogueira 2) and has looked vulnerable to ground and pound in the past as well (Vera, Pe de Pano, Lesnar 2) but at the same time he's capable of throwing strikes powerful enough to end/change the course of a fight (Kongo, Cro Cop, Nogueira 1) and is definitely capable of submitting high level opponents as well (Sylvia, Nogueira 2, Lesnar 1).

Is he as good as he seems to think he is? Not hardly, and he has a lot in common with Nogueira in that while he can be a threat standing or on the ground, he doesn't have the wrestling to switch between the two when he's compared to HWs like Brock and Cain.

Also, I can think of several possible injury/politics related scenarios for a Mir title shot that wouldn't be nearly as weird as the soap opera that led to Machida's effort last Saturday. Barring that I think if they sign a match between him and Velasquez and he wins then he should be in line for a shot at Junior, Lesnar, or Alistar, whichever one holds the belt at that time.

Flame away, but I'd say the weakest of the top dogs in the heavyweight division right now is Carwin. Every time he gets out of the first round, he gasses out, then loses. Even Brock has shown that he can fight for three rounds (vs Herring) without performing Beached Whale Kung Fu, Shane....not so much.

Also, should Alistar be considered a top MMA heavyweight at the moment? I say this not because I'm pulling for Brock to win his fight for America (I am, but that's a side issue) but because Overeem's last MMA wins are Brett Rogers, Todd Duffee, and...Paul Buntello?

Not to take away from his K-1 achievements, but should greatness in a completely different sport, even a combat sport, be used when ranking MMA fighters? It didn't seem to help Yoshida or James Toney that much....

**CNagy** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 7:20pm

You've skipped over a few of Overeem's matches there, of which Fabricio Werdum is a notable name. He (Overeem) doesn't get top ranking, simply because being outside of the UFC has kept him from fighting the very best competition, but if you've watched any of those fights (with the exception of Werdum, as he chose not to go to the ground with him) his striking power is beyond obvious.

Comparisons to Yoshida (one-dimensional grappler) and Toney (one-dimensional striker) are not really well thought-out. Overeem has 19 of his 35 wins by submission and placed first in the 2005 ADCC European Trials. So what you have is a huge guy with proven striking ability, proven grappling ability, (unproven steroid use,) and the only thing he is missing to be properly ranked is wins over top competition in the UFC. However, its hard to discount him as a top heavyweight given the fact that he has been a champion in Strikeforce and Dream. I'd say he has earned a fight for #1 Contender.

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 8:26pm

That guillotine choke of Overeem's is really what makes the Brock fight interesting for me, since it adds more variables than "Brock take him down-he loses", and if he beats Brock he definitely rates a shot at JDS over Mir or....is there anyone else on a wining streak at HW right now? Schaub just got put to sleep my Nog, Mir beat Roy Nelson, Cro Cop is done, Pat Barry was whupped by Kongo, I think Matt Mitrione won a fight recently....

It's just that a lot of the hype I'm hearing about Overeem now is similar to what I heard about Gegard, Aoki, Cung Le, Jake Shields, and many others were who "not ranked because they were outside the UFC" and turned out be "not ranked because they can't beat top competition."