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  1. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2011 3:55pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That makes it harder to address (which a problem I have). If a noob white belt asks someone how they did something, it can be useful for the people like said blue belt to give advice. Gives them some extra attention (since you can't always be with everyone simultaneously), and makes both people feel like they are part of a community.

    Even un-solicited advice can be useful, if it's cardinal rule (ie don't cross your feet when you put your hooks in, or the striking equivalent: keep your hands up). When it goes beyond that it, it becomes a problem, since then people are teaching things in a way that may not fit your system/methodology/etc.

    So, I explain to people, if someone asks, given basic advice. If you see cardinal errors, you can let the other person know, regardless of rank. Beyond that, go get instructor if you are concerned, and if someone asks you, tell them to get an instructor, or go get them one.

    (btw, instructor for us is someone two belt ranks above what the person is next going for; in a BJJ context, with less belts, it would be 1 belt. Thus a purple advises whites, a brown advises blues, and a black can do whatever they want).
  2. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2011 4:14pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason View Post
    That makes it harder to address (which a problem I have). If a noob white belt asks someone how they did something, it can be useful for the people like said blue belt to give advice. Gives them some extra attention (since you can't always be with everyone simultaneously), and makes both people feel like they are part of a community.

    Even un-solicited advice can be useful, if it's cardinal rule (ie don't cross your feet when you put your hooks in, or the striking equivalent: keep your hands up). When it goes beyond that it, it becomes a problem, since then people are teaching things in a way that may not fit your system/methodology/etc.

    So, I explain to people, if someone asks, given basic advice. If you see cardinal errors, you can let the other person know, regardless of rank. Beyond that, go get instructor if you are concerned, and if someone asks you, tell them to get an instructor, or go get them one.

    (btw, instructor for us is someone two belt ranks above what the person is next going for; in a BJJ context, with less belts, it would be 1 belt. Thus a purple advises whites, a brown advises blues, and a black can do whatever they want).
    Now you understand why I'm here asking the question.
  3. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2011 4:15pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, the short answer to the question (protocol wise) is what I explained above--all students, outsiders or students, or whatever, can provide basic help to others--solicited or unsolicited. Basic = hands up or the equivalent. Beyond that, it depends on your rank. If its an outsider, they have no rank, obviously.
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2011 4:30pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Now, my question is what is the protocol at your schools when an outsider comes in and starts giving advice to your guys? Let me qualify a few things before you answer. Realize I come from the school of thought that you do not say anything as a guest in anybody's gym without invitation.
    When I'm running the mat its pretty simple if you're higher ranked than me and or are legitimately assisting a beginner, then carry on.

    If you're lower ranked than me and are 'assisting' someone by teaching something I've just shown correctly, incorrectly or are just straight up contradicting me.

    Then usually I will walk over and contradict them by personally re-explaining what I'm trying to do to the pair.

    Its rare that I have had to actually call someone out and tell them not to teach, because they aren't qualified and don't know what they're talking about.

    Coming back to your question, though.

    If someone is trying to help a beginner to do what the head instructor told them to do properly then that kind of 'teaching' is ok, by me.

    If someone is teaching a beginner something that is in direct contradiction to what I have taught or undermines the exercise I'm trying to do, which is what your situation sounds like.

    Then, that is inappropriate and a steady escalation of measures to regain control of the practice and the mat should be enacted.

    First intervening and verbally explaining why you're doing it such and such a way and the purpose of the overall exercise.

    Second asking the individual not to try and teach variations or deviate in such a way that is firm, but polite and the person/beginner receiving the mixed messages understands that there is inappropriate behaviour occurring from the low grade contradicting me.

    Third taking them aside and firmly telling them to stop teaching and contradicting me, because I have a specific purpose to the lesson/ technique drill.

    Fourth, which I have fortunately never had to do, is stopping the session and making an example of them. By showing the whole class what they're are teaching inappropriately or incorrectly and making it clear to everyone on the mat why I'm right and they're wrong.

    Fifth, well I guess kick them off the mat...
  5. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2011 5:22pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sifu Jason and Judoka: Yeah, I'm still not sure in this situation. It was a blue belt talking to a blue belt during free rolling. In the past I've had it blow up in my face. I let it go as the person was a solid blue but in the past that sometimes opened the door to somebody who believes that they're on the same level as me and has outright interrupted me on the floor.

    In the scenario I'm referring to (the old anecdote, not the current one on this thread)I was showing my guys how to do submission combos (triangle, to armbar to omapolata) and I said casually that I don't like going for triangles because they're hard for me to finish (bad knees), all of a sudden he interrupts me, tells me what I was doing wrong and then takes over class. After class was over I called coffeefan and told him how he taught the triangle. Coffeefan's response? "That's how you teach it".

    I know that's how I teach it, I taught that kid the exact same thing when he was coming up through the rank. All of a sudden everybody was listening to the kid's instruction over mine. It took me months to undo the damage. After that I've been a bit more wary. This is the reason I'm asking what the protocol is at your schools.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2011 5:30pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have a similar story from the other side. It is situational not grappling is that cool?
  7. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2011 5:38pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    I have a similar story from the other side. It is situational not grappling is that cool?
    How about put it in the other thread. I'm trying not to step on JNP's feet.
  8. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2011 5:41pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    I have a similar story from the other side. It is situational not grappling is that cool?
    It's cool by me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    How about put it in the other thread. I'm trying not to step on JNP's feet OCD.
    Fixed.

    It's all right. A little bit of variance is good to keep my OCD in check.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  9. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2011 5:47pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I said casually that I don't like going for triangles because they're hard for me to finish (bad knees), all of a sudden he interrupts me, tells me what I was doing wrong and then takes over class...

    All of a sudden everybody was listening to the kid's instruction over mine. It took me months to undo the damage.
    That's massively out of order.

    I'm surprised you let that happen, although I can understand if in the moment you were just kind of taken aback.

    Like you say though, if that was my mat and my session and the guy was being that big a douche bag. I would probably have taken my belt off and issued a challenge like you did.

    And I've have banned him from coming back, because that kind of obnoxious arrogance is just too disruptive.

    Especially as you're a commercial club. I ran a university club, which was run on a 'break even' basis and even then I would not have let that stand.

    I was lucky mind you in that I had several dan grades on the mat who I had graded or taught Judo to, so could always count on support and if there was a real problem I had my coaches who were ex full timers who could lay the mother of all smack downs on upstarts.

    So if in the event that such an outrageous example of disrespect occurred, which I've luckily never had. I knew that I could always fall back on my coaches to wreck their **** even if I couldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    After that I've been a bit more wary. This is the reason I'm asking what the protocol is at your schools.
    I don't believe I ever had any protocol spelled out or enunciated in anyway. Respect was earned through doing and you obeyed 'protocol' through observing common sense.

    So you knew who the top dogs on the mat where and why and how they had got there.

    You didn't question their knowledge or authority, because they could and would smash you in randori and so everyone knew their place.

    I still remember as a freshly minted blue belt/ 2nd kyu trying to work my way into a conversation amongst a bunch of black belts about Sode guruma jime/ Ezequiel choke.

    They paused and all turned to look at me, said nothing, then turned away and continued their convo.

    Lesson learned.

    It was also good that even the top guys were willing, humble and open to learn from other top Judoka.

    I still remember my coach talking about how 'little' he knew about makikomi and recounting doing some sessions with a bunch of high level Russian Judoka. And he saying he didn't teach makikomi, because of those sessions.

    That made a big impression on me, because I thought he was god. And if god could admit he didn't know it all, well...
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2011 5:48pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nah it is ADG. Suffice it to say I understand Omega's second issue with damage to the instructor. My situation was actually created by the instructor in a similar fashion. You allow side instructing which is different from basic help. I think that is what is twisting some posters panties.

    Getting help from while rolling is supposed to happen unless it is way to advanced. The issue to me is where to draw the line.
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