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  1. JBliss is offline
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    Don't mess with the Mega-Buster

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 5:12pm

    supporting member
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shuai Chiao barely exists for the majority of MA world never mind the general public. ISCA is what I would consider "closed door" or exclusive. It's a large organization with it's base in Taiwan, here in the states its barely known and not aggressively promtoing itself. No SC fighter has ever been in any major NHB/MMA events nor do they appear to be training to do so. They consider themselves the pinnacle of MA with chang as a sort of legendary figure, it's the taint of bullshido if you ask me and a mindset I don't agree with. I don't question the ability of Chicoine, I have met the man, I've seen him work, I don't question the ability of my previous instructor he was exceptional in every way. I question MY abilities because they are by and large untested, these men are supremly confident in themsleves they had trained and fought their way to the top much like chang himself. I am not one of these men, I am young and full of piss and willing to take hits to learn lessons. I have a lot of fighting years left in me before I am tempered and confident enough to turn my training more inwards. My SC training did not satisfy me, I sought out martial realists who were intereste in LIVE training and not being self assured that I could handle myself when necessary.
    Last edited by JBliss; 4/05/2004 5:15pm at .
    Secret moves such as hitting a thing with your hand and hitting a thing with your leg have been stolen and degenerated by arts like karate, boxing, muay-thai, Kung-fu, and basketball. -Epicurious

    I for one welcome our new Ninja overlords.
    -Whiteshark

    I figure fighting a group of chunners would be like water torture, its not the force as such, just the constant trickle of chain punches wearing down your sanity. -The Juggernoob
  2. Cracker is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 11:35pm


     Style: slappy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JBliss, interesting perspective. What prevents you from practicing your Shuia Chiao live?

    In my perspective, Shuai Chiao is just a set of skills...throws and takedowns, not an entire fighting system.
  3. JBliss is offline
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    Don't mess with the Mega-Buster

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2004 1:54am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    the way I learned it, i pretty much learned a skill set broad enough to cover all ranges but groundwork. My instructor included knowledge from all the systems he was accomplished in as well as the ISCA curriculum which includes with the SC system, the boxing styles of Hsing-I, paqua, Tai chi and Lohan as well as the arts of the five families of Hung Lau Choi Lei and Mok. I learned alot and use many of the skills to this day. I know a great many throws and have a few I am good at, I combine some of the chinese boxing with western boxing and Muay thai to give me a base stand-up fighting style. What kept me previously from say sparring full contact or having randori throwing matches was the fact that there was no one in the very small class of maybe 6 or 7 that would indulge me. Most were older and put their time in the hard way years before I was even born. I started looking around at what other people were doing and wanted to see how I measured up, I started boxing with a friend of mine in my backyard...kickboxing with another and grappling with another and realized how I was holding myself back and after 3 1/2 solid years of traditional training I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. I began training vale tudo and splitting my time between what I called my "theory" classes and my "application" classes little by little I got bored with the "theory" the forms the one step sparring and dead repititions of technique and began spending more and more time at my "application" class until one day I just didn't go back. It sucks but I feel like I wasn't content doing things that I could easily do on my own when I could be across town going head to head with quality opponents. Unfortunatley this seems to be a trend in TMA's, one which we here at bullshido are trying to change.

    that being said I conclude my grandstanding in this thread
    Last edited by JBliss; 4/06/2004 2:10am at .
    Secret moves such as hitting a thing with your hand and hitting a thing with your leg have been stolen and degenerated by arts like karate, boxing, muay-thai, Kung-fu, and basketball. -Epicurious

    I for one welcome our new Ninja overlords.
    -Whiteshark

    I figure fighting a group of chunners would be like water torture, its not the force as such, just the constant trickle of chain punches wearing down your sanity. -The Juggernoob
  4. Cracker is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2004 8:41pm


     Style: slappy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JBliss, I see where you're coming from, thanks for the frank answer. It's really too bad that your older classmates didn't want to play, and I agree that it is a problem in many TMA schools. I teach a small Hung Gar class, and the main focus is hands on training. It's tough on the students at times, but they're making good progress and I'm learning from it as well. I make a point of de-emphasizing forms and focusing on foundation skills and applications.
  5. KC Elbows

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2004 9:46pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I believe there are at least three, possibly more, members over at kungfumagazine's forum(SC people) who have or do actively compete in legitimate nhb tournaments. And actually, the decision to judge SC's effectiveness comparitively to judo or anything else cannot be made off of a group of people who do not compete openly with other styles, but off of members who do. In a strictly scientific sense, I mean.

    I haven't crossed hands with them, one group from IL, one from, I believe, Texas.
  6. tiltpoint is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2004 1:15am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    the texas group was the one to which i was referencing. john wang out of austin. the punches/kicks element is taken mainly from changs striking arts, and so in theory is different from kickboxing. throw in kickboxing rules, however... it does end up looking a lot like san shoo. but its sc san shoo. the students there are mostly 20s and 30s, and spar in varied formats. as far as i know, however, none of them have fought nhb or mma yet.

    iron, my money would be on the better practitioner, regardless of style. for much the same reason gm chang was respected by people from many styles. i have sweated with these (austin)people, so i really dont see your frame of reference... then again, this is my only contact with sc, so i might have just gotten lucky.
  7. much love is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2004 2:39pm


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is a good thing he didn't talk **** about David Lin and his crew. (Brian Wu, John Wang, etc.)

    I have trained with John Wang and I competed in Chicago and met the other folks.

    They are bad to the bone and more than a little serious.

    David Lin will throw you and then shoot your newly quadrapalegic ass.

    These folks like to train full-contact and they are very sadistic (complement)
  8. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2004 2:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by much love
    It is a good thing he didn't talk **** about David Lin and his crew. (Brian Wu, John Wang, etc.)
    If Chicoine's wallet said "Bad ************" on it, I wouldn't be suprised.

    Its a matter of "legitimacy" and throwing Chang's name around that is at the crux of the thing, as far as I know.
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  9. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2004 6:19pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by tiltpoint
    the texas group was the one to which i was referencing. john wang out of austin. the punches/kicks element is taken mainly from changs striking arts, and so in theory is different from kickboxing. throw in kickboxing rules, however...
    John Wang's striking style is basically longfist with a few borrowed elements from other styles. He also seems to have some training techniques specifically for entering and throwing. I'm sure his longfist is heavily influenced by the fact that the only reason to hit someone, in his book, is so that they can block and you can grab his blocking arm and throw him on his head.

    He posts heavily at emptyflower but avoids Bullshido because of the time we put up some clips of Chang Dong Sheng and basically everybody did what they always do. They said Judo throws were better, the opponents were cooperating yadda yadda yadda.... It was pretty funny to me because the stuff was Chang at like 70 years old or something. I dunno, old. And also because, if you know who Chang was, the criticism that he was doing throws against a bunch of Aikidoka type slo-mo "look out I'm going to grab your wrist!!!" throws . . . well, it's hard not to laugh.

    But John obviously reveres his teacher and although he catches a fair bit of flack from a lot of traidionalists for mixing in a little MT and disposing of most of the forms from his longfist (another irony), where respect for his seniors or even any of his Shuai Jiao brothers comes in, he strikes me as quite traditional.

    I'm sure if you had specific questions about his type of ShuaiJiao you could ask over at emptyflower but the atpmosphere is different there and he's a highly respected member of that forum if for no other reason than that many of the members have traine with him and so far, NO ONE who has ever met him or trained with him has had anything but tremendous praise.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  10. much love is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2004 6:01am


     Style: Jazzercise

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omar,

    Have you trained w/Master Wang?

    His strikes are a lot more than long fist

    When he was younger he trained western boxing.

    He teaches praying mantis, baji, tai chi, xing yi, long fist and more

    What do you mean "disposing " of the forms of long fist?

    He was teaching a **** load of forms when I trained with him (he was my Si Gong and he came to our classes at a frequency of once per week).

    And right you are about the tremendous praise he has earned.

    The way I hear it he met Master Chang at a park in Taiwan.

    Master Chang then came and stayed with him in the US for 6 months

    anyway, enough nut-riding from me

    John Wang rules!
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