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  1. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 2:44pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The State of Shuai Chiao

    Ever since GM Chang died, the Shuai Chiao world has been in political strife. The following is from http://www.shuaichiao.com/ the news section.

    The Illegitimate of Shuai Chiao

    The ISCA is the only legitimate representative of Shuai Chiao through out the world. Grandmaster Tung Sheng Chang, Grand Champion of Open Fighting and the undisputed head of Shuai Chiao, formed the International Shuai Chiao Association in 1982. Upon Chang's untimely death in 1986, leadership of the association was passed to his 13th disciple and highest in rank next to Chang, Grandmaster Gene L. Chicoine.

    Even before the untimely death of G.M. Chang, Daniel Weng was attempting to form his own organization in this country. G.M. Chicoine, as 1st Vice President, received permission from G.M. Chang to remove Daniel and anyone attempting to destroy what Chang had built.

    No other Shuai Chiao organizations in this country are now nor will be in the future, recognized by Taiwan and the members of the ISCA as legitimate.

    While not recognized as legitimate, these people have utilized the Internet to not only promote their bogus organizations, but to inflate their abilities and rank. Many of these individuals have in the past recounted personal relationships with G.M. Chang in an attempt to justify their inflated claims and bring substance to their name.

    Mr. Daniel Weng has for years, made claims that border on absurd. In actuality, Daniel had only several months of training in Shuai Chiao. While in Taiwan, Daniel received most of his training in Judo, not Shuai Chiao. Daniel has in the past utilized the ISCA for personal gain. He obtained the training film of material G.M. Chang taught at the Central Police University from G.M. Chicoine himself in order to make a copy of it.

    These same people through Mark Miller, a student of Daniel Weng, are now using David Chang, G.M. Chang’s grandson. Mr. Miller is married to a Taiwanese woman and currently resides in Taiwan. Mr. Miller frequently writes that David received everything his grandfather, before his death, could possibly teach anyone about the martial arts. This is not only a lie, but is also insulting to anyone with an iota of intelligence. David was only a small child when Master Chicoine started his training with Chang and everyone was fully aware of the relationship between them. David and all others were also aware of the knowledge being taught to Master Chicoine.

    At the time of G.M. Chang's death, David, in his late teens, was serving his mandatory two years in the military. During the time of Master Chicoine's training, Chang spent a lot of time in the U.S.A, the remainder of which, Chicoine spent with him in Taiwan. Chang requested that Master Chicoine teach David programs on how to develop Chi and to utilize it properly. Iron Palm and proper points to strike would also be taught if Master Chicoine felt the young man deserved it.

    To be considered legitimate, a "Master" must have attended a certain level in his training, regardless of style, which goes beyond the norm. This special knowledge, after years of hard work, now becomes "his" treasure that will only be shown to those deserving of it. G.M. Chang taught many of his treasures that made him a champion to Master Chicoine, enabling him to pass them on to those he felt worthy of that knowledge.

    It is impossible for David Chang to have learned in such a short time what took his grandfather decades of full time training under approximately 70 different teachers. David has been using his grandfather's good name for years to gain recognition. G.M. Chang trained and fought constantly to become the most undefeated all out fighting champion in Chinese history. David, on the other hand, has yet to fight in one Shuai Chiao competition!

    One time when G.M. Chang was watching Master Chicoine fight in a no rules situation, he stated that here was absolutely no one alive that even knew one half of the Shuai Chiao he had attained, including his brother in Mainland China. This statement did not even account for the many Internal and Moslem styles that he also had mastered!

    The Center for Chinese Studies, run by Frank DeMaria, is another example of how a claimed association with Chang can build a name. Frank married a Taiwanese woman who happened to be G.M. Chang's goddaughter. This woman repeatedly requested that Chang not only teach DeMaria, but also make him a disciple. To rid himself of the annoying situation, Chang made DeMaria and his student Peter Chema, honorary godsons; not real godsons, but "honorary" godsons. The only time that Chang spent at Mr. DeMaria's home was on one of his first trips to the U.S. to work with Master Chicoine. Chang stopped at Frank's home to drop off some gifts to Mrs. DeMaria from her parents. He had been there about ten days when Master Chicoine received a phone call from G.M. Chang's youngest son asking Chicoine to get Chang out of Frank's home immediately. Chang's son said that they were using his father, by demonstrating for small groups of spectators and Frank's meager amount of students. In addition to this, Frank had his wife listening in on all of Chang's phone calls to his Chinese friends! One week later, Master Chicoine brought his teacher back to Ohio where he was welcomed by Chicoine's school of 200 students and performed in a demonstration for 2300 people. G.M. Chang gave Frank's wife $1,000 from the demonstration to pay for his stay at their home, sick of their constant complaints about the cost of his visit.

    Frank never was commissioned to write a book on Chang's Yang Style of Tai Chi, and neither was Daniel Weng. The two did so on their own. Neither of these two men were taught the real "Chang" Yang style as to a prior agreement G.M. Chang made with General Lee, that they would only teach their disciples the changes made to the original Yang form.

    Frank is another example, like Daniel, of a person with no skill, a reputation not earned, and no ability to fight combat. His so-called fight in Taiwan lasted an embarrassing 30 minutes and is still laughed about to this day. As to DeMaria impressing Chang with his skill, no one had impressed Chang, least of all DeMaria. It took Master Chicoine, an accomplished fighter to start, many hours filled with sweat and pain before G.M. Chang was pleased.

    Last but not least is David Lin of New York City, who makes all kinds of claims of skill and knowledge. One of the claims that specifically upsets G.M. Chicoine is Lin's claim of being qualified and skilled in Shuai Chiao. Mr. Lin had only six months of basic training in Shuai Chiao under Jeng Hsing Peng, the most capable instructor of the Shuai Chiao throws and Chin Na alive today. Mr. Lin is a perfect example of a martial artist attempting to sound credible and skilled based upon the fact that he is Chinese. In fact, Lin has no skill and merely associates with a lot of others like him in an attempt to gain notoriety.

    America has always been the land of opportunity, and the Internet has provided the vehicle for all of the snake oil salesmen to gain some recognition. The majority of this has been accomplished using the name of a dead master who can no longer speak for himself. They have no personal reputation of achieving some level of proficiency or real skill of their own. No one wants to be considered a loser, but unfortunately the Martial Arts in America attracts and produces, percentage wise, a large number of them.

    G.M. Chicoine was taught a complete training program, to be added to his own skills, that was to be used in conjunction with the Shuai Chiao throws. This was so that Shuai Chiao would not lose its century old reputation of producing the most efficient fighters. Other than G.M. Chang, two other teachers, who unfortunately have also passed away, taught G.M. Chicoine. He is probably one of only a few left who were taught in the old and pure ways.

    During his 54 years of training, G.M. Chicoine has never taught sport competition. It was Chang's own concept that one must be "dedicated, determined, deliberate, and, if necessary, deadly" in the use of the Martial Arts. Unfortunately, Americans have a way of destroying many old customs and cultures. Martial Arts in this country have become "Americanized" and a joke along with those that promote it.

    To any of those mentioned, if G.M. Chicoine is wrong, then there is really only one way to settle this disagreement. We are sure that you people know what way that is. There have been several offshoots of at least some of those mentioned; G.M Chicoine does not feel they are worthy of any mention.

    Looks like Chicoine called bullshido on his contemporaries. Anyone know if his challenge was ever accepted, or what the status of this feud is currently?
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  2. JBliss is offline
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    Don't mess with the Mega-Buster

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 3:33pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    this war goes on forever

    Nobody ever ponied up to this challenge, of course. The feud is ongoing and since my exit form the CMA world I try not to concern myself to greatly. While I feel the ISCA is a great organization I think it may be styming its own growth by not promoting sport competition of any kind or fielding fighters in ameteur MMA competitions or Sanshou events. My understanding is that such restrictive formats would dilute the essence of the art, and their best get tested in "other" venues. I myself wanted to fight MMA, wanted to learn groundwork, and box etc. So I drifted away from the training, I don't regret it, but feel there is alot to be said for an organization such as the ISCA, and will no doubt find myself older, wiser, and looking to resume my "old school" training.
    Secret moves such as hitting a thing with your hand and hitting a thing with your leg have been stolen and degenerated by arts like karate, boxing, muay-thai, Kung-fu, and basketball. -Epicurious

    I for one welcome our new Ninja overlords.
    -Whiteshark

    I figure fighting a group of chunners would be like water torture, its not the force as such, just the constant trickle of chain punches wearing down your sanity. -The Juggernoob
  3. IronBuddha is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 3:38pm

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     Style: Punch & Kick

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am not a member of any of these organizations. All I have to say is that regardless of who is legitamite or illegitamate, all these people will get chucked on their heads by them Judo guys. I love Shuai Chiao, I really do. And I do believe that there is more variety in throws than Judo. However, as far as I know, none of these organizations promote active competition nor do they train hard enough, drill hard enough, to be competitive against other similar arts. Master Chang Tung Seng was a bad-ass. There is no question about it. His students...i'm not so sure.

    Either way, it is just disputes about who's the legitamite leader of an art that's second class. They need to realize that people only give a **** about who's top dog and train harder. They can do it but this stuff is just counter-productive.
    Punches in bunches and kicks kicks kicks!
  4. JBliss is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 3:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been through my whole outlook on this situation in the earlier shuai chiao threads. IB I agree, I beleive the life of an art is in the sport, the randori aspect which at least for me was seriously lacking in my Shuai Chao training, I was only in one very small school so I can't speak for the headquarters in Ohio or the schools in Taiwan.
    Secret moves such as hitting a thing with your hand and hitting a thing with your leg have been stolen and degenerated by arts like karate, boxing, muay-thai, Kung-fu, and basketball. -Epicurious

    I for one welcome our new Ninja overlords.
    -Whiteshark

    I figure fighting a group of chunners would be like water torture, its not the force as such, just the constant trickle of chain punches wearing down your sanity. -The Juggernoob
  5. tiltpoint is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 3:53pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    just wondering if the david lin mentioned is or isnt david chee-kai lin out of atlanta? and ironb, oddly enough the sc guys i know fight full contact, and cross train with kickboxers etc. but that could just be one branch... after all chang had other disciples.
  6. JBliss is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 3:55pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is NOT David Lin in atlanta www.combatshuaichiao.com He at one time was affiliated with ISCA and was a student of Chang's and his abilties cannot be questoned, if he is still friendly with the organization I don't know but he seems to keep company with some of the offshoots. David Lin of New York has his own web site http://masterlins.cfw2.com he is "less than reputable" from the ISCA's standpoint.
    Last edited by JBliss; 4/05/2004 4:00pm at .
    Secret moves such as hitting a thing with your hand and hitting a thing with your leg have been stolen and degenerated by arts like karate, boxing, muay-thai, Kung-fu, and basketball. -Epicurious

    I for one welcome our new Ninja overlords.
    -Whiteshark

    I figure fighting a group of chunners would be like water torture, its not the force as such, just the constant trickle of chain punches wearing down your sanity. -The Juggernoob
  7. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 4:08pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is another quote from the site

    People who were dismissed with the approval of Grand Master Chang before his death have formed the organizations that exist outside the ISCA. By Grand Master Chang they are deemed totally unqualified to teach Shuai Chiao, with the exceptions of Master Jeng Hsing Ping in New York City, New York and Master David Lin in Atlanta, Georgia.
    So it appears David Lin, in Atlanta, is in good standing with ISCA.

    Edit: noted Atlanta.
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  8. IronBuddha is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 4:13pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tiltpoint. I'm glad to hear that some SC guys are going at it full contact....even if they are an offshoot. But SC with Kickboxing = San Shou. Which is cool and I love SS as well. But from a pure SC point of view, it is closest to Judo. Master Chang supposedly was well respected among the Judo people that met him and beat some famous one. I am not sure myself as to who and when. All I am saying is that it does not appear to me that his students, regardless of the legitamate ones or the illegitamate ones can hang with modern Judo practitioners. I understand that some of the rules may need to be modified for fair competition but even a match of who's ass is on the floor (like they did it back in the day), my money, unfortunately would be with the Judokai. this type of internal squabbling and aversion to competition doesn't really bode well for the future of SC. it merely becomes a substitute for Judo where people don't have to sweat. much like how most kung-fu is a version of "striking" without any physical exertion.
    Punches in bunches and kicks kicks kicks!
  9. JBliss is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 4:25pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    mmm...by and large I still agree IB.

    the only thing I can add is from the ISCA standpoint any "fight" they would agree to would not be a throwing match. They will only fight NHB or at least that is my impression. And by NHB I MEAN ANYTHING GOES. You might get them to sport the 4ozers but they would be striking to the back of the head and headbutting and everything else that seems only allowed in brazil nowaday. I'm not trying to say that SC is T3H D34DL3Y I'm just saying thats the kind of fight they would be up for. I doubt anyone outside taiwan would go for a judo style match. Not from ISCA i don't think. I believe that some of the "illegitimate" schools have SC competitions but the traditional rules are a bit different from contemperary judo...I agree I don't believe they would measure up to the calibur athelete produced by the judo community worldwide.
    Last edited by JBliss; 4/05/2004 4:37pm at .
    Secret moves such as hitting a thing with your hand and hitting a thing with your leg have been stolen and degenerated by arts like karate, boxing, muay-thai, Kung-fu, and basketball. -Epicurious

    I for one welcome our new Ninja overlords.
    -Whiteshark

    I figure fighting a group of chunners would be like water torture, its not the force as such, just the constant trickle of chain punches wearing down your sanity. -The Juggernoob
  10. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2004 4:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Could it be that a great number of "Illegitimate" SC people out there have cast SC into a negative in the public view? I have no doubts as to Chicoine's skills, and obviously neither did Chang.

    Is there a lesson to be learned here?
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
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