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  1. tgace is online now
    tgace's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2011 1:59pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dont know what the hyperbole issue is about dude. I just found a video with more details than the spraying...

    Is the topic what they "could have done" or is it "were they legally justified to do what they did"?

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
    Last edited by tgace; 12/03/2011 2:06pm at .
  2. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2011 2:20pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Dont know what the hyperbole issue is about dude. I just found a video with more details than the spraying...

    Is the topic what they "could have done" or is it "were they legally justified to do what they did"?

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
    Only thing I'm conceding is that the video puts a better light on the issue. I don't want to get into all the other things I see wrong here, I'd be here forever.
  3. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2011 2:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Dont know what the hyperbole issue is about dude. I just found a video with more details than the spraying...

    Is the topic what they "could have done" or is it "were they legally justified to do what they did"?

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
    My topic is that they acted poorly (and the video is slanted). My perspective come from being involved in the 60s. To paraphrase Kieth Oberman, There is no excuse, there is no justification, there is no rationalization for having begun the great march back in this country to the days when mayors like Sam Yorty of Los Angeles and Hugh Addonizio in Newark and Richard Daley of Chicago stood back as their police incited, bullied, overreacted and brutally assaulted protesters at the height of the civil rights and anti-Vietnam movements. Those protests began non-violently, positively, with singing and marches and cooperation with the authorities."

    "But the police injected the violence, and it escalated and echoed and soon there just wasn’t one Iraq vet in a hospital with a fractured skull, but there were dead men and women on the streets of this country and no one wants to see it again today."

    The legality is for the most part irrelevant, as Bull Connors and Selma clearly established. Slavery was legal for 76 years in the US. But my heroes aren't the officers who enforced the Fugitive Slave Law.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  4. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2011 5:09pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The subtitles are obviously from someone who supports the police action. I don't see how the video is anything but video. No more or less slanted than just the shot of the spraying.

    +Were the campus cops within their authority to remove the tents?

    +If someone obstructed their removal did the campus cops have the authority to arrest?

    +If the above were legal and justified than the students physically blocking the cops departure are ALL obstructing. Sitting and demanding the arrestees release would be no different from waving bats on that account.

    On the "what I saw wrong" account...if they were within their legal bounds that becomes an issue of opinion and the saying about opinions comes into a effect. Same goes for peoples opinins on which laws are the equivalent of slavery.

    There should be a goodwins law infraction issued to the first person who trots out the old "well slavery was legal once too" saw. IMO.

    I do something that I know I could have done better at least once a week. That doesn't mean I did anything wrong. Its much easier for me to armchair what I would have done here....when you are surrounded by a crowd and have to make a decision its a different story.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
    Last edited by tgace; 12/03/2011 5:16pm at .
  5. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2011 7:46pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let me see if I remember my Hierarchy of Force Levels (Warning, All Information Is Two Years Old, May be Shrouded in the Fog of an Untrustworthy Memory, and were for the Department of Corrections aka Convicted and Guilty, Possibly It is Different for the cop dealing with Archie Bunker and Joe Palooka on the Streets)

    The LEO levels are:
    1. Officer Presence
    2. Verbal Commands
    3. Soft Empty Hand Control (Which is About the Only Time Wrist Locks and Pressure Points have value)
    4. Hard Empty Hand Control (Strikes to Non Vital Areas)
    5. Less Lethal Tools (Tear Gas, Baton, Taser, etc)
    6. Deadly Force (defined as anything that can kill OR DO SERIOUS INJURY; everything from the good old right cross to the jaw to the step over toe hold is Deadly Force, in a court of law)

    There are corresponding levels for the "Bad Guys", I cannot recall the exact terminology but it was something like:

    1. Verbal Resistance
    2. Goes Limp
    3. Passive Physical Resistance (Turning Turtle in a Judo or BJJ match would be a good example)
    4. Active Phyiscal Resistance (Trying to Run, Wrestling with the Officer, etc.)
    5. Using Deadly Force on the Officer

    The Rules say the LEO will *probably* not get in trouble if he (or she, let's be PC) stays within 1 Level of the "Bad Guy", for instance if you're mumbling under your breath about the officer's ancestry and sexual habits but still get up and leave when he tells you to, he shouldn't apply the Steven Seagal Lock to chuck you into the squad car, if you decide to be cute and lay flat on your back, though....

    As the protesters were linking arms I'd call that Level 3, so in theory the Officers could have started applying Seagal locks or even smiting them hip and thigh and been okay...my best guess is that they decided the pepper spray would look better on the evening news than a bunch of cops grappling and striking at a bunch of seated protesters. Hindsight 20/20 and all that.

    As for the people claiming it was "Like Something Out of the Civil Rights Era" I must have missed the videos where the Occupiers were set upon with fire hoses and angry German Shepherds. In my humble opinion, this stuff is to Civil Rights as the Invasion of Panama was to Vietnam.
  6. Gorgeous George is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2011 5:16am


     Style: Aikido; BJJ.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    As for the people claiming it was "Like Something Out of the Civil Rights Era" I must have missed the videos where the Occupiers were set upon with fire hoses and angry German Shepherds.
    Water is worse than pepper spray...?
  7. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2011 8:56am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgeous George View Post
    Water is worse than pepper spray...?
    When they start administering pepper spray with these then no:
  8. madmonkey is offline

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    united kingdom
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    Posted On:
    12/05/2011 1:09pm


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    Let me see if I remember my Hierarchy of Force Levels (Warning, All Information Is Two Years Old, May be Shrouded in the Fog of an Untrustworthy Memory, and were for the Department of Corrections aka Convicted and Guilty, Possibly It is Different for the cop dealing with Archie Bunker and Joe Palooka on the Streets)

    The LEO levels are:
    1. Officer Presence
    2. Verbal Commands
    3. Soft Empty Hand Control (Which is About the Only Time Wrist Locks and Pressure Points have value)
    4. Hard Empty Hand Control (Strikes to Non Vital Areas)
    5. Less Lethal Tools (Tear Gas, Baton, Taser, etc)
    6. Deadly Force (defined as anything that can kill OR DO SERIOUS INJURY; everything from the good old right cross to the jaw to the step over toe hold is Deadly Force, in a court of law)

    There are corresponding levels for the "Bad Guys", I cannot recall the exact terminology but it was something like:

    1. Verbal Resistance
    2. Goes Limp
    3. Passive Physical Resistance (Turning Turtle in a Judo or BJJ match would be a good example)
    4. Active Phyiscal Resistance (Trying to Run, Wrestling with the Officer, etc.)
    5. Using Deadly Force on the Officer

    The Rules say the LEO will *probably* not get in trouble if he (or she, let's be PC) stays within 1 Level of the "Bad Guy", for instance if you're mumbling under your breath about the officer's ancestry and sexual habits but still get up and leave when he tells you to, he shouldn't apply the Steven Seagal Lock to chuck you into the squad car, if you decide to be cute and lay flat on your back, though....

    As the protesters were linking arms I'd call that Level 3, so in theory the Officers could have started applying Seagal locks or even smiting them hip and thigh and been okay...my best guess is that they decided the pepper spray would look better on the evening news than a bunch of cops grappling and striking at a bunch of seated protesters. Hindsight 20/20 and all that.

    As for the people claiming it was "Like Something Out of the Civil Rights Era" I must have missed the videos where the Occupiers were set upon with fire hoses and angry German Shepherds. In my humble opinion, this stuff is to Civil Rights as the Invasion of Panama was to Vietnam.
    In UK LEO's are taught
    1. Verbal Resistance (shouting, insults etc...)
    2. Passive resistance (sitting/dropping body weight etc...)
    3. Active resistance (Trying to pull away/run away, pushing to get past)
    4. Aggressive use of force (Trying to hit or strike officer or throw officer, choke etc...
    5. Using Deadly Force on the Officer
  9. PowerfulFellow is offline

    Featherweight

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    Orlando
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    Posted On:
    12/05/2011 2:03pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shorei-Ryu/Goju-Ryu/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nothing against the motive of the letter for another's resignation, but it was HORRIBLY written and unnecessarily redundant.
  10. squidkicker is offline

    Featherweight

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    Kusel,DE
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    Posted On:
    12/06/2011 12:26am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: goju

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!


    you're welcome

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