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  1. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2011 10:37am

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     Style: 血鷲

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexJohn View Post
    I would like to reiterate the tactics used may not necessarily be the right ones to use in that certain situation. However, place yourself in the shoes of the police and ask how would you solve the problem that they are facing.
    I'm only going to address this part of your post. Disclaimer: I am not a police member, never been one, never applied to be one.

    However, as both a CO and a nightclub doorman, I've had to move individuals--as well as work with colleagues to move groups of individuals--who'd latched onto things (or nearby like-minded people) and refused to move when asked.

    In neither occupation were we permitted either striking (unless we were hit first), striking tools (truncheons, maglites and so on) or sprays, as these were not found in the use-of-force guidelines that applied to us in the case of persons not actively resisting.

    In such scenarios, we used our training in leverage to pry open grips, straighten and then lock arms, and walk or carry away those responsible. Only if they started hitting did we hit back, and then only hard enough to (re)establish a lock and (pardon the quaint archaism) come-along. If numbers were a problem, enough backup would be called to join in because--as everyone knows--the more personnel can deal with each recalcitrant person, the better such a person can walked or carried away without injury to anyone.

    The key to dealing with these was that there was no hurry, no 'how-dare-you-disobey-me' type egos on the part of enforcement personnel, and no other reason for tempers to get short.
  2. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2011 12:46pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    I'm only going to address this part of your post. Disclaimer: I am not a police member, never been one, never applied to be one.

    However, as both a CO and a nightclub doorman, I've had to move individuals--as well as work with colleagues to move groups of individuals--who'd latched onto things (or nearby like-minded people) and refused to move when asked.

    In neither occupation were we permitted either striking (unless we were hit first), striking tools (truncheons, maglites and so on) or sprays, as these were not found in the use-of-force guidelines that applied to us in the case of persons not actively resisting.

    In such scenarios, we used our training in leverage to pry open grips, straighten and then lock arms, and walk or carry away those responsible. Only if they started hitting did we hit back, and then only hard enough to (re)establish a lock and (pardon the quaint archaism) come-along. If numbers were a problem, enough backup would be called to join in because--as everyone knows--the more personnel can deal with each recalcitrant person, the better such a person can walked or carried away without injury to anyone.

    The key to dealing with these was that there was no hurry, no 'how-dare-you-disobey-me' type egos on the part of enforcement personnel, and no other reason for tempers to get short.
    This would require police officers to actually be trained. I cursored over this earlier on, but I'm choosing what I want to discuss on this thread.
  3. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2011 6:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    This would require police officers to actually be trained. I cursored over this earlier on, but I'm choosing what I want to discuss on this thread.
    Fair enough. On a more general picture of how LEOs can handle an 'occupation' without spraying and beating? Toronto Police--perhaps conscious of last year's G20 PR disaster--cleared that city's occupiers by taking time (the better part of a day), sending in teams of negotiators first, ensuring that protesters' right to make a statement was not the issue, then going in one park area at a time with maximum numbers of calm-minded officers to dismantle tents and other 'occupy' structures while completely ignoring the catcalls.

    Result? Very few arrests, no spraying, tasering, beatings or injuries, and the park was cleared of tents.

    Law enforced, problem dealt with, no bumps and bruises.

    Maybe those LEOs weren't trained in much H2H, but they were effective in terms of getting the job done without trampling democratic principles or over-reacting.
  4. wrapper is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2011 7:35am


     Style: BJJ/Judo

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    To apologetic LEOs on this thread: Just keep moving forward on your way to Egyptian conditions. That's what you were trained for and I understand, that you are unable to do anything but playing thugs for the ruling class. Private property is the highest good in the American value system and being without property is a moral deficiency. Also, if they don't want to get pepper sprayed, they could just protest in a place, where they aren't bothering anyone. I mean you are staying afloat by kicking down on other people and look how well it works for you.
  5. Bneterasedmynam is online now

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2011 12:43pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrapper View Post
    To apologetic LEOs on this thread: Just keep moving forward on your way to Egyptian conditions. That's what you were trained for and I understand, that you are unable to do anything but playing thugs for the ruling class. Private property is the highest good in the American value system and being without property is a moral deficiency. Also, if they don't want to get pepper sprayed, they could just protest in a place, where they aren't bothering anyone. I mean you are staying afloat by kicking down on other people and look how well it works for you.
    In all fairness they are just hippies and I'm ok with kicking hippies. Seriously though there are better ways to cause effective change at least here in the U.S. If the OWS crowd really are the 99% then why not use that power to vote in their own people to public office and cause said change?? It makes more sense than scotch taping dollar bills to their faces and dancing around like their on acid trips.
  6. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2011 12:46pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    In all fairness they are just hippies and I'm ok with kicking hippies. Seriously though there are better ways to cause effective change at least here in the U.S. If the OWS crowd really are the 99% then why not use that power to vote in their own people to public office and cause said change?? It makes more sense than scotch taping dollar bills to their faces and dancing around like their on acid trips.
    Because 99% of the population are sheep.
  7. madmonkey is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2011 9:52pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Fair enough. On a more general picture of how LEOs can handle an 'occupation' without spraying and beating? Toronto Police--perhaps conscious of last year's G20 PR disaster--cleared that city's occupiers by taking time (the better part of a day), sending in teams of negotiators first, ensuring that protesters' right to make a statement was not the issue, then going in one park area at a time with maximum numbers of calm-minded officers to dismantle tents and other 'occupy' structures while completely ignoring the catcalls.

    Result? Very few arrests, no spraying, tasering, beatings or injuries, and the park was cleared of tents.

    Law enforced, problem dealt with, no bumps and bruises.

    Maybe those LEOs weren't trained in much H2H, but they were effective in terms of getting the job done without trampling democratic principles or over-reacting.
    This definitely would have been better than the pepper spray, I suppose it depends on the proportion of protesters to police on the campus at that time.
  8. King Sleepless is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2011 9:54pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

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    I love how retarded everyone is.
  9. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2011 10:07pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirc View Post
    I love how retarded everyone is.
    You mean in general, or just the people here?
  10. madmonkey is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2011 10:32pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrapper View Post
    To apologetic LEOs on this thread: Just keep moving forward on your way to Egyptian conditions. That's what you were trained for and I understand, that you are unable to do anything but playing thugs for the ruling class. Private property is the highest good in the American value system and being without property is a moral deficiency. Also, if they don't want to get pepper sprayed, they could just protest in a place, where they aren't bothering anyone. I mean you are staying afloat by kicking down on other people and look how well it works for you.
    No one is arguing that pepper spraying was a great tactic or that the police are entirely blameless far from it. But equally it is naive to think of the protesters as being entirely innocent as was mentioned earlier a sit in protest is designed to provoke a use of force in some form or another as they know they will eventually have to be removed.

    And if the NYPD police are just playing the thugs for the ruling class why did they let people back into the park to protest as long as they didn't camp with tents.

    The situation in Egypt is a little different. It is a country under rule by the military and the police are simply an extension of that. I was in Egypt in June and our guide described his brother as a "general" in the police. Also its not like the crowds there have been entirely peaceful as some have been using petrol bombs. Also the protesters are fighting for democracy in what is effectively still a dictatorship not just protesting against unethical financial practices.

    Any suggestion that the USA government or police are anywhere near as corrupt as a military dictatorship isn't just cynicism its plain paranoia.

    I suggest you go and talk to some of your local LEO's or better yet go out on a shift with them and see what their job entails, its certainly not keeping the population under the thumb of "the man".
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