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  1. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2012 8:54am


     Style: Kendo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lanner Hunt View Post
    I dunno; him wanting to be there or not, and what seems to be his lack of ability to pay attention are, in my opinion, things that the coach needs to address more than the students.
    I don't think the OP meant to say that the students needed to motivate the kid. Not only that but there is often not much sensei can do if the kid really doesn't want to be there. Often it's parental pressure and I have had to say to the kid "if you want to learn, I want to teach. But if it's your Dad who wants you here and not you then you are wasting both of our time. Talk to him."
  2. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2012 9:35am

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    I'd disagree with that. At the very least, the kids can have some fun. Our dojo is family oriented, and the kids love to get out there and throw Dad around. If Dad is skilled enough to get them to use good form, all the better. One of our kids with such a skilled dad goes into competitions and pretty much blows through the other kids his age, despite having little experience training with anyone his size.
    i agree with this 100%. in fact, at my dojo, the children (age 6-12) *only* randori with adults, but only adults over brown belt. however, it is not proper randori, as neil said, we mostly just take falls at first, then as the child gains skill, we start to only take falls when they have used proper technique, then only when they have used a combination. Eventually we also throw them with counters, but always with a lot of control.

    once they are teenagers, and they start to compete, the rules change a bit and the adults who are close to their weight (like me, at 155lbs) start to do proper randori with them, but of course not using makikomi throws, or just being extra careful to not hurt them.

    it's tough to know how hard to go, and i usually err on the side of caution, so occasionally sensei needs to remind me that i can throw one of them "for real", but i also think that my cautious attitude is one of the main reasons i am chosen to work with them in the first place.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  3. Coach Josh is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2012 11:48am

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     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First and foremost it's randori. Regardless of who you are partnered against it is your duty to practice and perform techniques appropriately. At 215# if you were doing Makikomis against the kid that would be bad. Ashi waza on the other hand was/is fine.

    IT IS UKE'S RESPONSIBILITY TO BREAKFALL CORRECTLY.

    If they can't they shouldn't be in the session.

    If your intent was to "teach him a lesson". I would be upset. Though it seems you taught him a lesson by properly doing Judo. So you should not feel bad about it.

    I do not reward bad technique by taking a fall. No one ever should.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk please ignore typos.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2012 6:44pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    I'd disagree with that. At the very least, the kids can have some fun. Our dojo is family oriented, and the kids love to get out there and throw Dad around. If Dad is skilled enough to get them to use good form, all the better. One of our kids with such a skilled dad goes into competitions and pretty much blows through the other kids his age, despite having little experience training with anyone his size.
    Bit late to reply to this, but I equate it to practising with a girl and jumping for all her throws in randori.

    The woman doesn't really learn anything except that you'll jump when she makes a throw attempt. The same with the kid randori is about learning to throw a resisting competent opponent not a glorified nagekomi session.

    Doing nagekomi with kids throwing adults is ok, I'd personally advocate other methods, but its not without merit. However, call that kind of practice what it is, nagekomi.

    Its not randori.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    First and foremost it's randori. Regardless of who you are partnered against it is your duty to practice and perform techniques appropriately. At 215# if you were doing Makikomis against the kid that would be bad. Ashi waza on the other hand was/is fine.

    IT IS UKE'S RESPONSIBILITY TO BREAKFALL CORRECTLY.
    Absolutely this.

    If the only thing you can catch a kid with is a Makikomi or a drop seoi your stink at Judo.

    When I practice with teenagers, I don't randori with under 13s, I just use ashiwaza and throws that are in my 'lab/pipeline'.

    And 9/10 if someone gets hurt being thrown its their fault for either stiff arming, not knowing how to break fall or trying to turn out.

    Injuries from clean throws are very rare, injuries from throws where people have put ego above ukemi are ten a penny.
  5. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2012 7:43pm

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    The same with the kid randori is about learning to throw a resisting competent opponent not a glorified nagekomi session.

    Doing nagekomi with kids throwing adults is ok, I'd personally advocate other methods, but its not without merit. However, call that kind of practice what it is, nagekomi.

    Its not randori.
    ok, we're getting dangerously close to a judoforum-esque debate over japanese terminology, but i don't think it's *exactly* nagekomi either.

    nagekomi doesn't have a lot of movement usually (the way i have done it, it has always been done directly in front of a crash mat, with no free movement leading to the throw.) for all i know, other dojos may do nagekomi differently.

    in nagekomi, uke knows what he will be thrown with ahead of time, and uke offers absolutely no resistance to the throw.

    in nagekomi, uke never counters tori.

    now, when i practice with the kids, we are moving around, i am giving appropriate resistance to their skill and strength level, and once they get to yellow belt and certainly orange belt, i start to counter them when i feel that they have attacked with technique that is open to a counter. also, if they don't attack, i attack them (with control of course.)

    maybe it isn't randori. sensei calls it randori, but that may be for the kids benefit, since it's the closest thing they get until they are teenagers.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  6. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2012 8:05pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    ok, we're getting dangerously close to a judoforum-esque debate over japanese terminology, but i don't think it's *exactly* nagekomi either.
    I've always done nagekomi as any form of throwing practice where you move about the mat and throw your partner, they don't resist and go with your throwing action.

    Randori is where you try and throw a competent resistant partner and your partner tries to throw you.

    Nagekomi has one distinct thrower and the uke endeavours to go over for the tori to ensure good practice.

    I've done nagekomi on crashmats and nagekomi on mats. No distinction has ever been drawn around it being nagekmoi. The distinction has always been 'following through' and competition completion is done on a crash mat normal nagekomi is done on the mat.

    I would add a layer of subtlety in that uke doesn't resist nagekomi, however, uke assist nagekomi by positioning themselves correctly and correctly transferring weight etc...
  7. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2012 8:49pm


     Style: Kendo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The word for this style of practice is "sute-geiko", wherein uke lets himself be thrown by a good entry.
  8. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2012 9:06pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    The word for this style of practice is "sute-geiko", wherein uke lets himself be thrown by a good entry.
    Indeed. However, why complicate the issue. One person is doing all the throwing and another all the falling without any resistance.

    There's already a widely established Japanese phrase for this - nagekomi.

    No need to 'randori-fy' it just see it for what it is, nagekomi.
  9. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2012 11:20pm


     Style: Kendo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I think of nage-komi like uchi-komi where the throw is taken to completion instead of kake. whereas sute-geiko has more of a free-wheeling aspect to it. At any rate it is ridiculous to think an adult can have a proper randori with a kid. So when the sensei says it is randori time and you get paired with a kid then how do you make best use of the time? And is there really any point to telling the kid "that wasn't really randori"? Just let him be successful when he does things right within his abilities.
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