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  1. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 2:03am


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Randori etiquette question

    So, I am a Judo white belt at a small club with a nice mix of adult beginners and experienced students, and younger students of varying experience.

    During randori I was partnered with one of the younger yellow belts who, in my experience, hates to work hard. After he repeatedly attempted o soto gari with absolutely no kazushi and no chance of actually finishing the throw (he was basically just entangling my leg and pushing lightly) I foot swept the bajezus out of him (since we had worked on foot sweeps before randori).

    Unfortunately (and despite me remembering kime) he fell strange and jarred his shoulder a bit. I felt bad, and like my response was not as "mutually beneficial" as it should have been. He went on to spend the rest of that round: crying about his shoulder, standing around after getting his grips trying to "remember" the throw he wanted to do, and getting chewed out repeatedly for not working hard by our instructor.

    I am just looking for opinions here, was I too harsh on him? He never seems willing to work hard and I was hoping he would realize his very lazy throw attempt wasn't going to do any good. Apologies for any spelling mistakes in my Japanese terms.

    tl,dr: Should I teach a rather lazy young pre-teen/teen a rough lesson by countering his lazy throw?

    Thanks.
  2. CrackFox is offline
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    You have to work the look.

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 3:55am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How old exactly? If you're an adult you shouldn't be training with kids.
  3. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 5:35am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think you should feel bad for countering his throw. Especially as it was a 'repeated' lazy attempt.

    Life will give him harsher lessons than you did.

    Feel like an ass for injuring him if it was down to lack of care on your part.
    But if you were looking after him as best you could when you threw and it was just an accident... Martial art or any sport, some injuries will happen.


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  4. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 7:45am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Krijgsman View Post
    tl,dr: Should I teach a rather lazy young pre-teen/teen a rough lesson by countering his lazy throw?

    Thanks.
    No, and much less if teaching a "rough lesson" results in a injury.
  5. daishi is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 10:00am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm guessing he's young, and a bit of a bitch. Most kids are at a young age, I'm guessing 12-16 year old? Having coaches and senseis help me 'man up' at that age helped in my growing process. At least in my opinion. Not to be a dick to the kid, but just don't show too much sympathy when he gets hurt from being lazy or not doing techniques correctly.
  6. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 10:05am


     Style: Kendo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My opinion is that as an adult beginner training with a pre-teen beginner, you should only be uke - in other words it's sute-geiko, not randori. Take the fall when you judge that the kid has made a good entry. Not getting the throw should be sufficient feedback. A more experienced person could maybe counter the kid with better control and judgment.

    And as a white belt, it's not your job to teach a lesson about anything to anyone - leave that to the instructors.
  7. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 10:13am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    How old exactly? If you're an adult you shouldn't be training with kids.
    Why not? I randori all the time with the kids.

    Our children's classes are taught concurrently with ours... so before a class, during a break, or if I find myself without a randori partner because there's an odd number of adults, I'll occasionally look for a volunteer to drag onto the mat.

    I hate fucking standing around doing nothing, especially if there's someone else standing around doing nothing too.

    Of course I'm not a white belt, so I have at least a modicum of control. The only person who stands to get injured is me really.
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    My opinion is that as an adult beginner training with a pre-teen beginner, you should only be uke - in other words it's sute-geiko, not randori. Take the fall when you judge that the kid has made a good entry. Not getting the throw should be sufficient feedback. A more experienced person could maybe counter the kid with better control and judgment.
    Yes, I agree with this 100%.
  8. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 10:38am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Krijg I understand your annoyance I have an annoying 13/14 year old at my local club. They can very easily rub you up the wrong way and its really tempting to teach them a lesson.

    That being said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Krijgsman View Post
    So, I am a Judo white belt...

    Should I teach a rather lazy young pre-teen/teen a rough lesson
    No, because as much as you may think that you are safe and responsible enough to administer such a lesson in a meaningful way your post demonstrates you aren't.

    As you said you counter threw and despite your efforts to control the fall he still got hurt.

    Kids at that age are difficult to throw firmly and safely because they bend and twist and do stupid **** to try and avoid the score, because they've come from kiddy Judo where its all about winning and not about learning and the forces involved allow them to get away with being stupid. Often they also don't or can't breakfall.

    So they are a danger to themselves and require a greater skill level to throw firmly and not get hurt, this is beyond your capabilities right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    Why not? I randori all the time with the kids.
    Because its pointless for both parties.
  9. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 11:25am


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Because its pointless for both parties.
    I'd disagree with that. At the very least, the kids can have some fun. Our dojo is family oriented, and the kids love to get out there and throw Dad around. If Dad is skilled enough to get them to use good form, all the better. One of our kids with such a skilled dad goes into competitions and pretty much blows through the other kids his age, despite having little experience training with anyone his size.
  10. watchman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 1:27pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The usual method of choice for correcting my terrible footwork/posture/everything was De Ashi Barai when I was a white belt (not that long ago) sparring against brown or black belts. Having my foot swept out from under me almost always landed me on my butt, with minimal hurt and minimal chance of injury. But it got my attention that I was doing something wrong. O Soto Gari is a much harder throw to take, and I've done dumb things like posting my arm and not tucking my chin as I fell. Dangerous to fall that way.

    Black belts at my club can sweep my foot and crank me over, then hold me up just before I fall so that my ass barely touches the mat (if they want to). That's control. I don't have that kind of control, not even close. I think the point is: Only people with superior control teach lessons, and that includes knowing what throws Uke can take and what throws he can't.
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