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  1. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 9:40am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dflanmod View Post
    I do some coyote hunting out here in southern CA.

    No prarie dogs out this way. :(


    We don't need no steeenking praire dogs , we've got the Beldens Ground Squirrel , Come to the Surprise Valley and get in on The Great Ground Squirrel Shoot.

    And no you actually wouldn't believe it if I told you. I will say this....you won't bring enough ammunition. You can say you will but.......you won't. If you bring one rifle and it's a barrel burner...............bring a spare barrel and your gear to swap out.............seriously.

    And folks can say what they want , these shoots draw the *seriously* serious crazies in the varmint world and some of these folks are among the very best long distance shots you will every see , the bench crowd is a bunch of poofters by comparison and this varmint crowd is beyond well 'ard.

    Example being the Double Ds a retired couple from Rock Springs Wyo , one year they brought their Suburban instead of the motorhome , they got stopped on the way out and when the nice officer asked Diana of they had any firearms on board she made the mistake of saying yes , when he asked where she said " in back"............23 rifles an 6 handguns.

    Or AR-Al , who shows up every year with two heavily modified ARs in Bolt Gun Country and holds his own , shoots one till it heats then switches to the other , burns a barrel and replaces it , breaks anything he fixes it. This guy is no joke and earned his respect and anyone who thinks all ARs are done at 300 needs to watch this guy.

    The first time I went I took two rifles , a .22-250 and a .243 for windier conditions and I took 1200 rounds between the two.......I was outa ammunition before noon the second day of a three day shoot. One year I went through not one but two barrels on a 7mm STW ( the last straw for my dismal adventure with that cartridge).

    Now I'm up to taking a golf bag of rifles , portable bench , wind socks etc etc. , which is pedestrian compared to the bull goose loonies with shooting benches that set up on top of their RVs and the like , but then most those folks are shooting what are essentially bench guns where my stuff is more of the " walking weight varminter" style , they'll wait on the squirrels , me I'll go to the squirrels.

    On another note , kind of a sidetrack except for the range type factors. Folks in calif who want to actually hunt something but don't know what..................go shoot a hog , in fact
    go shoot three , or five. We've got way , way ,way too many , the problem is out of hand and they're a non native species with an omnivorous diet and a prolific birth and survival rate.

    And they'd best open a Lion season in this state at some point , along with expand the number of bear tags. I can show you places up here where you will cut more lion or bear sign than deer sign. But we've got hogs , oh boy are there hogs . Mostly on private land but there are lots of the dirty buggers.

    CAVEAT: if you come up here during certain times of the year you will need a *LOCAL* contact with the right info on which canyons/areas/ side of which mountain to stay the hell away from on a given year. And *heed* that advice , I am NOT shitting y'all on this. And under no circumstances cross onto the reservations , not any of them , drive through if you have to do so but do not screw around.
  2. dflanmod is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 11:12am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    We don't need no steeenking praire dogs , we've got the Beldens Ground Squirrel , Come to the Surprise Valley and get in on The Great Ground Squirrel Shoot.

    And no you actually wouldn't believe it if I told you. I will say this....you won't bring enough ammunition. You can say you will but.......you won't. If you bring one rifle and it's a barrel burner...............bring a spare barrel and your gear to swap out.............seriously.

    And folks can say what they want , these shoots draw the *seriously* serious crazies in the varmint world and some of these folks are among the very best long distance shots you will every see , the bench crowd is a bunch of poofters by comparison and this varmint crowd is beyond well 'ard.

    Example being the Double Ds a retired couple from Rock Springs Wyo , one year they brought their Suburban instead of the motorhome , they got stopped on the way out and when the nice officer asked Diana of they had any firearms on board she made the mistake of saying yes , when he asked where she said " in back"............23 rifles an 6 handguns.

    Or AR-Al , who shows up every year with two heavily modified ARs in Bolt Gun Country and holds his own , shoots one till it heats then switches to the other , burns a barrel and replaces it , breaks anything he fixes it. This guy is no joke and earned his respect and anyone who thinks all ARs are done at 300 needs to watch this guy.

    The first time I went I took two rifles , a .22-250 and a .243 for windier conditions and I took 1200 rounds between the two.......I was outa ammunition before noon the second day of a three day shoot. One year I went through not one but two barrels on a 7mm STW ( the last straw for my dismal adventure with that cartridge).

    Now I'm up to taking a golf bag of rifles , portable bench , wind socks etc etc. , which is pedestrian compared to the bull goose loonies with shooting benches that set up on top of their RVs and the like , but then most those folks are shooting what are essentially bench guns where my stuff is more of the " walking weight varminter" style , they'll wait on the squirrels , me I'll go to the squirrels.

    On another note , kind of a sidetrack except for the range type factors. Folks in calif who want to actually hunt something but don't know what..................go shoot a hog , in fact
    go shoot three , or five. We've got way , way ,way too many , the problem is out of hand and they're a non native species with an omnivorous diet and a prolific birth and survival rate.

    And they'd best open a Lion season in this state at some point , along with expand the number of bear tags. I can show you places up here where you will cut more lion or bear sign than deer sign. But we've got hogs , oh boy are there hogs . Mostly on private land but there are lots of the dirty buggers.

    CAVEAT: if you come up here during certain times of the year you will need a *LOCAL* contact with the right info on which canyons/areas/ side of which mountain to stay the hell away from on a given year. And *heed* that advice , I am NOT shitting y'all on this. And under no circumstances cross onto the reservations , not any of them , drive through if you have to do so but do not screw around.


    Yeah I've been meaning to make it up to one of those squirell shoots up in northern CA. Been wanting to do that for a while. Don't have any bench rifles though, never been a fan of them. Tried to do some real hunting with my brothers bench rifle once and decided that they were too narrowly pupposed. So I'd have to make do with my walkabout rifle.

    So given my usual hunting constraints I look for the following in a rifle.
    Accurate.
    Lightweight.
    All weather.
    Good trigger.
    Clip fed.
    Left handed.
    For varmints I recently picked up a Tikka T3 stainless in .223.
    It put up groups just under an inch with the first box of factory ammo I put through it, weighs under 6 pounds, the factory trigger adjusted down to about 2.5 pounds and I got a left handedd version for about 600 dollars.

    The stock feels a bit cheesy and cheap and it's definately no Sako but so far I'm loving this thing. I have to do a **** load of walking in around here so the light weight is great. Down side to the weight thing is that you can't see the bullet strikes as the muzzle jumps too much.

    I've tried the pig hunting thing in CA with no success so far. I'm limited to public lands (hunter ligget for example) and have struck out thus far. I only know one person with land up there and the few times I have tried on their piece I came up empty. I guess I could go buy/hunt a pig off one of the ranches but I just can't bring myself to pay 400 dollars to shoot a pig.

    Sounds like you've had some experiences on the indian reservations.....
    Care to share?????
    Inquiring minds want to know.
  3. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 11:40am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah, memories of my dogs eating the kill and then finding it vomited all over the back porch later on....

    good times.
  4. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 1:22pm


     Style: Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dflanmod View Post
    For varmints I recently picked up a Tikka T3 stainless in .223.
    It put up groups just under an inch with the first box of factory ammo I put through it, weighs under 6 pounds, the factory trigger adjusted down to about 2.5 pounds and I got a left handedd version for about 600 dollars.

    The stock feels a bit cheesy and cheap and it's definately no Sako but so far I'm loving this thing. I have to do a **** load of walking in around here so the light weight is great. Down side to the weight thing is that you can't see the bullet strikes as the muzzle jumps too much.

    I've tried the pig hunting thing in CA with no success so far. I'm limited to public lands (hunter ligget for example) and have struck out thus far. I only know one person with land up there and the few times I have tried on their piece I came up empty. I guess I could go buy/hunt a pig off one of the ranches but I just can't bring myself to pay 400 dollars to shoot a pig.

    Sounds like you've had some experiences on the indian reservations.....
    Care to share?????
    Inquiring minds want to know.


    Lot to answer , in order. Anyone who says there is anything wrong with a Tikka can blow it out their ass , I've shot too many and seen too many of 'em to believe rifle snobs , those are the same folks that get all pissy if you point out that their Weatherby is actually a Howa.

    I've got a couple of Sakos yes , but I bought the TRG because I wanted that platform specifically , the mistake I made was that I should have waited and gotten it in .338 Lapua since now I'm building one , the pre-Garcia is just a sweet shooter.

    Hogs , don't know where you are. However forget Liggett , most anything between Hollister and Coalinga is private now , lotsa hogs but you pay a guide. If you want SLO county then forget the west side of 101 or south of the Cuesta grade , go through Santa Margarita and go out 58 , see if you can find a landowner that gives access for a fee , or go on out to the Carrisa Plain and talk to the Twisselman Ranch or the carrissa or Carnaza hunting clubs

    CAVEAT: stay the hell out of the hills south of 58 right there ( The Caliente's). and **bring enough rifle** that area has huge hogs even for Calif , don't even bother with dogs , at least not catch dogs these aren't pissant 150-200 lb squealers.

    Further down closer to socal check out Tejon Ranch , pay a guide the first couple times out and file away everyhting he tells you , then get your own topos and go from there.

    On your buddies land , you need to be there to know how they are moving , where they are taking water and eating and where they are bedding. You could set up a feeder that drops at random days and times and if there is a resident group they'd likely start making a pass through every day or two dependent upon other available browse.

    The reservations. Quite simply all the reservations within the socalled Emerald Triangle , which encompassed more than just the TriCounties grow a lot of dope and if you trespass you're going to get stomped at best and exsanguinated and hung on the fence as an example at the worst , they've got a virtual war going on with the Cartel type growers that you don't want to chance inadvertently ending up in between or even to be around.

    Likewise certain places you don't go because of those cartels , that's not just media bullshit and there's more than one of us that's been shot at , for me it was no big deal they were in my range and I was pretty well out of their , but just the same I skedaddled over the ridge and got gone.


    Old data , but some loads that might interest you . don't know what length and twist you have though.

    26 - 26.5 grains of H4198 under any 35 grain will render 4k or above out of any tube 24 or longer , very accurate at that level out of most rifles , it can go faster but they usually open up a bit


    A Red Mist recipe that went 3700 plus out of a 26 inch PacNoir on a Savage action ( shoulda kept that one)

    Ramshot XTerminator 27.5-7 grains Calhoon DBL hps in 42 grains in a Rem or Federal case 450m primers , standard COL.

    Average groups under a half minute of angle with that load out of the aforementioned Savage and does a number on Coyotes too.

    By the way Varget works real well across a wide range of loads in .223...
    Last edited by Jazzman; 11/18/2011 1:34pm at .
  5. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 1:40pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    In .223? That depends on the rifle and whether it will cycle with that light of a loading if it's a semi auto , is there a reason you wish to back off so far on the velocity?
    I am considered about excessive effective range, more or less similar to how those unfamiliar with terminal ballistics concern themselves with wall penetration. Giving that the land in question is about 1000 feet long by 300 feet wide, I'd prefer to work up a load that drops like a stone past 100 yards. I know that in home defense, wall penetration is a necessary byproduct of effective terminal ballistics; can something similar be said of medium to long effective range when hunting small game?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    What rifles are they , I'll look in my logs and see if I have any data that is close to one of your rigs.
    Thanks, but I want to make clear that I don't own anything like I'm discussing yet. I am just taking this opportunity to better develop an idea I've had for a while.

    1. Savage 12FCV Varminter
    2. CZ 527 Lux
    3. Savage 11F (Savage's site only lists the FNS which doesn't have iron sights, but the one I'd get has them stock).
    4. Tikka T3 Lite
    5. CZ 527 FS
    6. CZ 527 Carbine

    The CZ carbine appeals to me very strongly, but it's at the bottom of the list due to the short barrel length.
  6. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 3:08pm


     Style: Kempo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    I am considered about excessive effective range, more or less similar to how those unfamiliar with terminal ballistics concern themselves with wall penetration. Giving that the land in question is about 1000 feet long by 300 feet wide, I'd prefer to work up a load that drops like a stone past 100 yards. I know that in home defense, wall penetration is a necessary byproduct of effective terminal ballistics; can something similar be said of medium to long effective range when hunting small game?

    Thanks, but I want to make clear that I don't own anything like I'm discussing yet. I am just taking this opportunity to better develop an idea I've had for a while.

    1. Savage 12FCV Varminter
    2. CZ 527 Lux
    3. Savage 11F (Savage's site only lists the FNS which doesn't have iron sights, but the one I'd get has them stock).
    4. Tikka T3 Lite
    5. CZ 527 FS
    6. CZ 527 Carbine
    The CZ carbine appeals to me very strongly, but it's at the bottom of the list due to the short barrel length.


    Hhmmmm , please don't kill the messenger here , though you may like what I state in the end.

    For the scenario you stated you're working against everything that's a natural advantage in .223 , sure it coulde be done with a lot of load development but it's a high velocity , flatshooting cartridge that you want to perform in a lower velocity arc type trajectory . the likely result of that will be substandard penetration and performance from the vast majority of the slug offerings on the market , forget the lower weight slugs you'd have to do it on the top end and even at 2500 won't get the sort of drop you're looking for.

    Here's an alternative that you may give some consideration to , one that is more versatile and much closer to the intended goal.

    Buy that 527 carbine you like , but instead of .223 buy it in 7.62 x 39 , which is pretty easy to load down enough to do what you want and which will still retain the kind of performance at target that you are looking for , furthermore it has the potential to equal the .30-30 in performance when loaded in a bolt platform correctly and similar performance up to deer sized game , scope it right and it would be a very versatile little rig for out to 250-300 and a slamming little unit under that range.

    The vast majority of load for the cartridge are under the 2500 mark and with a bolt gun you could load say 140 to 155s at around the 2000 fps for exactly what you want , keep some 125s around loaded up around the 2500 mark for decent 250 yard coyote medicine

    Think about , make a nice little woods gun , and hell if you're actually going to stay under 150 yards with it then go with an optical sight like an aimpoint , one of the new holographics etc.

    Might be a better alternative than trying to make .223 fit that particular box , that's kind of a hard row to hoe , with any of the high velocity cartridges.
  7. searcher66071 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 4:17pm


     Style: Karate-knockdown, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I shoot some coyotes. I normally use my Remington 700 Tactical in .223. I handload 75gr and 80gr Nosler balistic tip. They do very well with getting the coyotes down. Lure them in with roadkill deer or rabbits.

    I have been wanting to try my Mosin-Nagant out on some coyotes, but I am not sure about it yet. I need to seat the stock a bit better before I try to make use of it.
  8. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 4:17pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I will consider it; thanks for the advice. I guess I need to spend some time figuring out what my shoulder can handle.
  9. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 5:24pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This was going to be an edit, but I took too long to write it...

    Looking into 7.62x39mm, it seems to be roughly comparable to 30-30 Winchester. Is there any advantage to spending ≈$600 for the CZ carbine instead of just getting this? As far as 30-30 Winchester factory loads: light load, heavy load. Loading my own: light bullet, heavy bullet.
  10. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 8:00pm


     Style: Kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    This was going to be an edit, but I took too long to write it...

    Looking into 7.62x39mm, it seems to be roughly comparable to 30-30 Winchester. Is there any advantage to spending ≈$600 for the CZ carbine instead of just getting this? As far as 30-30 Winchester factory loads: light load, heavy load. Loading my own: light bullet, heavy bullet.


    For your purposes no , even if you handload you won't likely load hot enough to make the better lockup of a bolt gun a factor. And .30-30 is better at the heavier end of the available slugs. Ammunition will be more expensive , but then it'll be brass that's reloadable not steel case berdan primed junk loaded with god know what powder ( I've see some really BAD ComBloc and midEast surplus).

    You can handle the majority of game in the lower 48 in you can shoot and stalk , though it's light for moose or Elk or big bear.

    Here's how I feel about .30-30 , here in among all the trick bolters there's a Marlin 336
    ,heres how long it's been around , I bought it new back when it was 69.99$............it's still here and if I am just going out the door to go boonie bashing with a dog for the day that's what comes to hand quite often.

    It would be a better choice for what you want actually. And in a pinch .30-30 , like
    .45-70 . .32-20 . .35 rem and others can be loaded with black powder if you're in a real bind or a true survival type scenario.

    And if you wanted you could go to the ne Hornady Leverlution stuff , but a man could get by on the over the counter 125s for coyote and the like , 150s for deer and small hogs and 170 grain slugs for big hogs or black bear.

    Oh and the recoil on either the 7.62 x 39 or .30-30 isn't anything really , your shoulder won't even feel it. But then I'm not particularly recoil sensitive , though the .375 RUM does slam me a bit now and then , especially when loaded with hot 300s or 325. Gonna get rid of that frigging thing though , it costs a fortune to feed even handloading for it and my yearly powder and components bills are bad enough that I no longer add 'em up out of fear of a coronary and it's useless in the lower 48 , even up north the Guide Gun is a better bear defense rifle ( quicker follow up) or the Condor with slugs and the .300 or any of the 7mms will do Moose just as efficiently without the cost , the Lapua will be much better long distance.
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