Describing Mixed Martial artists as 'Boxers'

[battheo]

You premise is false, he has done freestyle competitions in the past. I know a guy who trained with him in Canada.

Your quibble is ultimately a question of arbitrary semantics.

I agree that it's arbitrary semantics, but it's not my quibble, it's the argument as a whole. Re read the op.

As to GSP competing in pure wrestling, that changes things for me. My reply was based on Vince's assertion (which perhaps I mis-read) that GSP had NOT competed in pure wrestling.

Back to the original point of the thread, I wouldn't consider even great strikers like JDS as boxers because although their skill set may draw heavily from boxing, what they are doing in the octagon is not boxing. That's not to say JDS couldn't be a great boxer, just that he isn't currently competing as one.

[robdaze151]

I believe that Diaz has had a few boxing matches not sure though.
That being said Dos Santos is not a boxer he is a cage fighter who uses tools from boxing to win his fights. there is a huge difference.

[Omega Supreme]

In a friendly debate with a buck sergeant at work (a buck sergeant that's never trained but is a self proclaimed MMA expert), I stated that most successful mixed martial artists found their striking in boxing. I cited guys from Don Frye, to Nate Diaz, to Vitor Belfort, all the way to Junior Dos Santos, and he said that none of them could accurately be described as 'boxers'. What do you boys think?

*Feel free to move this to YMAS, I was borderline over placing this here*

I believe your argument is extremely flawed. No, they can't be described as boxers. Only Franky Edgar has been able to demonstrate true boxing in an MMA setting. Almost everybody else uses a modified stance somewhere between a wrestling stance and a kickboxing stance.

[Omega Supreme]

if you see someone doing horrible mistakes during a wrestling move, his take down or whatever even if it succeeds is sloppy and technically bad, than you can't call him a wrestler... same for boxing, though you have some MMA fighters that train in boxing allot (GSP 4 example trained with Freddy Roach.) if their technique is horrible, like sticking their chin up, not using combinations properly, i don't care how many KO the guy does, he isn't a boxer.
The fact that someone had a pro boxing fight or two doesn't automatically makes him a Boxer in my eyes, for example Cimbo had a pro boxing fight with some cannon meat, he won, is he a boxer? he is boxing oriented, yes, but he isn't really a boxer. I think that BJ Pen has some good boxing, and also Anderson Silva. "The Irish Hand Grenade" Marcus Davis was a pro boxer and he uses his skills nicely.

One of these days you've got to educate us on how you can throw your voice so far up your ass. You should take your show on the road. I can see it now "Erezb, and his incredible talking ass. Can you figure out which one talks more bullshit?....We can't."

[Omega Supreme]

Um... I'm not sure what the argument here is... you're right that those guys have a striking skill set that comes from boxing (not sure I'd say most though... Muay Thai anyone?)

He, however, is also right that none of them could accurately be described as 'boxers'. They're martial artists who use some of the boxing skill set as a part of their game.

Have I missed something?

Counter point: Some of those fighters started off in boxing and went to MMA, or started boxing as their base skill set.

[ronaldk]

i think i sort of agree with the buck sargeant in the sens that you don't purely box in MMA. ie. you have to be weary of the takedown, knees, et all, so you change your game up a bit.

whereas, the changes in wrestling/jiujitsu are in fact there, i don't feel they are as prevalent. just my opinion though. but yeah, you CAN win just using pure boxing, but i see that as harder to happen than winning using pure wrestling (Lay'n'Pray anyone?)

[JitsMag]

Boxing training is more common in MMA because everyone is afraid to get taken down after a kick. So it does make sense, although if your kickboxing is high level enough, you will be too fast and precise to get taken down, like Jose Aldo - quick return on the kick, very hard to get taken down.

[atomicpoet]

I believe your argument is extremely flawed. No, they can't be described as boxers. Only Franky Edgar has been able to demonstrate true boxing in an MMA setting. Almost everybody else uses a modified stance somewhere between a wrestling stance and a kickboxing stance.

To me, boxing is less about form, and more about success within the Queensberry ruleset. I've seen elite boxers who give their opposition fits simply by being unorthodox.

I have no problem regarding some mixed martial artists as boxers. Very much appreciated Anderson Silva's book Boxing for MMA.


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[Tranquil Suit]

Boxing training is more common in MMA because everyone is afraid to get taken down after a kick. So it does make sense, although if your kickboxing is high level enough, you will be too fast and precise to get taken down, like Jose Aldo - quick return on the kick, very hard to get taken down.

His Black Belt in BJJ helps too...

[Einstein McFly]

This is actually a huge pet peeve of mine. It seems nonsensical to describe any MMA fighter in an MMA fight as "having better boxing" or "having better wrestling" than anyone else. What the "better boxers" are doing is PUNCHING better than the other guy and better wrestlers have better TAKEDOWNS or GROUND CONTROL than the other guy. If you get rid of trying to parse everything that happens as coming from some other sport that happens to use that technique, all of this crap goes away. There's no issue with GSP never having put on a singlet and gone out on a mat because THAT'S A DIFFERENT SPORT. What he does well in MMA is takedowns and ground control which he clearly didn't learn from wrestling because, as we've mention, he never wrestled. See where I'm going with this?

It's the same thing when someone does and throw and it's described as a "judo throw" even though every form of grappling does has the same technique, not to mention the fact that that throw is invented every day on school yards by kids who have never heard of judo and can't spell wrestling. Arbitrarily mapping every movement in an MMA match into some OTHER SPORT makes discussing it much harder, as the OP and his buddy have discovered.