A rant on Denigration of Europe.

**kenning** · Posted On: 11/16/2011 11:35am

Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam

Your right learning how to sword fight out of context from a 500 year old book is much better. You do realize you are a LARPer right??

Yes, much better. And ya know why? I am not LARPer, sorry, but a backyard cutter. I own a longsword and a saber, both production blades which were re-worked by myself in order to achieve historical authenticity and sharpness. More than a year now I cut straw mats, soaked newspaper rolls, meat and stuff, and I can tell you this stuff from medieval books is damn right if it comes to real cutting. There is nothing more effective to validate a martial art than the actual use as intended.

**Bneterasedmynam** · Posted On: 11/16/2011 12:03pm

Originally Posted by kenning

Yes, much better. And ya know why? I am not LARPer, sorry, but a backyard cutter. I own a longsword and a saber, both production blades which were re-worked by myself in order to achieve historical authenticity and sharpness. More than a year now I cut straw mats, soaked newspaper rolls, meat and stuff, and I can tell you this stuff from medieval books is damn right if it comes to real cutting. There is nothing more effective to validate a martial art than the actual use as intended.

I think you are proving my point more than yours. What you are doing is no different than a ninjer.

**bobyclumsyninja** · Posted On: 11/16/2011 12:06pm

Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam

I think you are proving my point more than yours. What you are doing is no different than a ninjer.

I don't think he's claiming the unbroken line to medieval knights, by being an enthusiast.

**Bneterasedmynam** · Posted On: 11/16/2011 12:43pm

Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja

I don't think he's claiming the unbroken line to medieval knights, by being an enthusiast.

No but he is play sword fighting from acient "manuals" and claiming a higher fighting ability as a result.

**kenning** · Posted On: 11/16/2011 1:02pm

Wait, there is one last issue. The goddamn myth that european steel and metalworking were shitty, compared to the East.

I posted this one already: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...an-Sword-Myths. Look for Myth#3.

At 500 BC bronze was entirely replaced by iron, 300 BC Celts and Romans already mastered folding, lamination and heat treatment (many of older Celtic swords seem to be not heat treated at all). Diodorus Siculus mentioned Celt-Iberian metalworking being very sophisticated - iron was buried in ground and left for some time, parts containing too much sulfur and phosphorus would rust away (you keep hearing that same process was used in Japan, but I've never seen a credible source). The Kingdom Noricum was famous for its Ferrum Noricum. Modern day western Germany and eastern France was a metalworking area since the Hallstatt and La-Tene.

So basically, Toledo (Celt-Iberian), Solingen (Rhine) and Passau (former kingdom Noricum territory) were not only homes of famous blademakers, their history can be traced for two millenia!! Two millenia of experience and quality. Even damn Arabs bought Frankish swords and paid hundreds and thousands of dinars! Until 15th century we have no accounts that Europeans were not satisfied with their own metallurgy, there are literally no accounts of significant sword imports. But plenty of restrictions in terms of blade export!

Now the real thing. The russian Cossack saber, called "shashka", was made mainly of Russian and German steel. Many blades were imported from Germany and 'put together' by the local cutlers. The most famous were "wolf-swords", Passau blades marked with the typical "running wolf" stamp. These swords were reported to be ultra hard, sharp and tough, could cut through rifle barrels and a human body in two with just one blow. Unlike countless """"samurai sword cuts barrels humans and other sword in two"""" claims the power of shashka can be backed up by credible evidence.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

As well, writing in 1854 of his time among the tribal clans of the Caucasus, Ivan Golovin recorded: "As proof of the excellence of Circassian arms, I may state, that the barrels of Russian muskets have been cut into two parts, in the battle, by a stroke of the shashka. Russian officers could not do better than adopt those sabres." (Golovin, Ivan. The Caucasus. Trübner & co., London 1854, p. 150).

Michail Sholokhov, the author of the Cossack saga "And Quiet Flows the Don", has witnessed the famous "Baklanov slash", a special cutting technique which is said to have been perfected by general Baklanov. Kharlampiy Ermakov, one of the best swordsmen of the Red Army of 1920's, demonstrated this feat by cutting a birch-wood pell with one blow. Sholokhov writes in his memoires there were pells up to 8" in diameter - if we assume a 3" standerd pell the amount of skill and blade quality are still scary as hell. And that's one-handed slash, not a axe-like chop with both arms. It is possible, yes, but from my own backyard experience I can tell you need LOTS of skill to do so.

Antiquity, Middle Ages, Modern times, Europe was always known for high quality blades and absolutely badass metallurgy. Romans, Arabs, Cossacks, they all agree with it. But nowadays it seems be all forgotten, and Europeans worship asian blades... Bullshit!! European steel was never worse than Tamahagane, Damascus, Wootz, etc. And many of european blades were even better/sharper/tougher than their asian counterparts.

Sorry to say that, but when it comes to raw slashing power and blade strength, a Cossack shashka made of Passau "Noric steel" (or any modern properly heat treated 1065 carbon steel) would outperform any KatAhnaH of the day. Now a Tru Katana, forged in traditional way should do it!! Oops, there are only modern reporduction blades made with european modern metallurgy, which come close to it. And no credible evidence of cutting barrels or trees.

Face it, Katana lovers! Noric Celts were fording supreme blades when Japan was literally in its stone age! "Bad european steel" is just an another modern myth born in the 19th and celebrated in 20th century, when cheap mass produced swords and wallhangers took over real military blades.

Tamahagane?? Ferrum Noricum FTW!

*big grin*

**Permalost** · Posted On: 11/16/2011 1:13pm

Originally Posted by kenning

But Western fanboys somehow have their own logic; if japanese swords are special, hand crafted deadly blades, it automatically means european blades have to be sh*t! Where the hell this idea comes from?? East = superior, West = dumb. Europe + Medieval = dumb, stink, ignorance.

I'm a supporting member of deviantArt, so I know a thing or two about Weeaboos, and here's my take on where some of their pro-Japanese myths come from.

First, why did Weeaboos decide that Japan was so great? I think its a dissatisfaction with their own world around them. The girls don't like them, their food must be what's making them fat, their mom's always hasseling them to move out and clean up after themselves. You know where there must be a place for such radically different dreamers inexplicably drawn to foreign culture? How about the other side of the world, where everything is totally different? Surely, things would be different there. It's the place where everything is right, while clearly everything here is wrong. I think its a case of looking outwardly to find comfort in this life, and when so many thing aren't the way you want them, it's easier to imagine ditching it all and living in a faraway fantasy land. It's such a monumental task to do so, you don't even need to feel bad that you didn't accomplish it. Whenever you're feeling down about yourself, you can think "if only I lived in Japan, too bad its so hard to move there". Instead of taking small realistic steps, a lot of people would rather have their escapism. That's my take on why a lot of Westerners become totally immersed in Japanese culture.

**Sri Hanuman** · Posted On: 11/16/2011 1:13pm

One problem with all that fancy research. You completely left out the Klingon contribution to metallurgy and blade-based warfare.

Racist.

**kenning** · Posted On: 11/16/2011 1:18pm

Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam

What you are doing is no different than a ninjer... he is play sword fighting from acient "manuals" and claiming a higher fighting ability as a result.

Play?!? I cut stuff, mate. This is no game, but training. Proper footwork, edge alignment, speed, postures. Did you ever seen Ninjers who trained actual cutting with accurate blades? It takes months or even years to get your cutting skill even close to warriors of the old days, no wannabe LARPer will ever stress himself that much. They wanna play. Backyard cutting is real work.

Do you know what a Backyard Cutter is? Here is one:

Here's a Ninjer:

See the difference? Tatami and multiple bottles take much more skill than smashing through one tiny bamboo stick. Show me Ninjers taking on tatami and milk jugs with proper cutting technique, you're the man of the day!

**Sri Hanuman** · Posted On: 11/16/2011 1:22pm

So, just off the top of your head, when was the last time you fought off invading Spanish or Anglican hordes?

Also, please address your issues with Klingon racism. Not cool brah, seriously, not cool.

**kenning** · Posted On: 11/16/2011 1:41pm

Originally Posted by Sri Hanuman

So, just off the top of your head, when was the last time you fought off invading Spanish or Anglican hordes?

Also, please address your issues with Klingon racism. Not cool brah, seriously, not cool.

Remember England riots 2011? If our world ecomony collapses, I'm fukin ready. Especially when everyone runs out of ammo. BTW - Klingons suck. Predators has bigger... blades and plasma cannons than lame Klingons.