A rant on Denigration of Europe.

[kenning]

Source one says, "Studies show X."
Rebuttal says, "I'd like to see those studies!" A fair enough demand, but hardly evidence itself of academic fraud.
Nor is pointing out that amateur historian A disagrees with amateur historian B on some issue, or that non-academic book X disagrees with non-academic book Y.

No, referring to fictious studies or facts do not expose you as a fraud. But in Turnbull's case, being a academic historian (not an amateur!), he is obligated to know about the current state of research. He apparently doesn't, instead he writes falsehoods - which are known to be falsehoods a long time! And that makes you a fraud.

Were these manuals analyzed, and the results published under academic standards before Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook publishing date?. Because if he was working with the published data available at 1997-1998 you can't put much blame on him.

• Ewart Oakeshott published his works from the 1960's; weight, construction and sharpness, all those things were covered by him. His works are considered as the best research ever done on medieval swords and their methods.
• Hans-Peter Hils: Meister Johann Liechtenauers Kunst des langen Schwertes © 1985
• John Clements: Medieval Swordsmanship. Illustrated Methods and Techniques. © 1998
• Archaeometallurgist Alan Williams published since 1977. Best metallurgical research on original blades we have at time.

Shame on Turnbull. He should know it better but he apparently decided Europe is "simple" enough to not bother himself with real study.

There's something missing. Turnbull talks about "knocking the attacking sword to one side with the flat of the blade" not a simple "displacing cut" as you say.

Ever displacing cut is more or less about knocking a blade aside. European blades were routinely used for blocking/displacing with the flat. For example, a mastercut called "Zornhau". Here a nice vid:

I feel there's some intellectual dishonesty from your part regarding this issue.

I give sources. I expose frauds. That must be enough.

[ChenPengFi]

Why the **** are you quoting books in response to

Who here said anything about European swords being inferior??

?

Are you fucking retarded?

[kenning]

Why the **** are you quoting books in response to ? "Who here said anything about European swords being inferior?? "

Did you read my initial post? I SAID that mass media, frauds and "common knowledge" perpetuate the myth of euroswords being inferior. My words were doubted then I posted books, links and other fukin things. Reading comprehension helps.

Boys and girls, I'm a liitle tired now. I gave you a dozen of links, exposed two frauds, and pointed out that especially in the US european history and MA's get denigrated in favor of "popular Orientophilia". Denigration we see in form of crude bullshit and myths even from people who are supposed to know better.

This kind of sentiment has to be fought and kicked out of media. Period. People who drain self-confidence from JMA and CMA and need Europe to be crude and dumb to feel themselves "superior" - that's your problem!! Deal with it.

[ChenPengFi]

Clearly you are the one with a problem and you have yet to deal with it.
Here, i'm a "cma guy", i like Euro swords too. I've spent much time in the National Museum of Denmark and the Varde Museum among others, ogling fine European blades.

Are you happy now?

[kenning]

[ChenPengFi]

So you are retarded.
Got it.

[Homernoid]

And you will see that it started when a CMA-ist, Homernoid, called me "****". Before his post there is nothing anti-asian in my posts.

I called you a ****, because you are a **** behaving like a DRAMA QUEEN you even double it.

omg, there is **** being said in tv and somewhere else, and **** being written in books, even in some scientific ones - wow, impressive cognition skills, really dude, you must be new onto this planet.

somebody that does some freaking oriental kung fu calls me bad words and we all know, those who practice that crap must be retarded lunatics, expecially when met at bullshido.net
oh, and they are all haters of european war-gear and mastrubate on katana - epic profiler you are, a real mastermind-****
and I am not a hater of JMA or CMA, I just hear their laughter, even when noone is there or laughing - my mind is so awsome, I can even split my consciousness like other people split their butt cheeks.

--
had hell of a fun on writing this. thank you for that opportunity.

[kenning]

For all my fans:



Really strange - even curved blades from european Middle Ages (Falchions, Glaifes, Messer, axes) are said to be crude blunt choppers. Funny enough japanese sword is assumed to be a better cutter because of a curve, but this rule somehow doesn't work in Europe. A medieval curved Messer and Cossack shashka (both are technically almost identical) will outcut any Katana, they can withstand much greater abuse as Dr. Turnbulls can imagine, but well, Katanas Are Just Better.

Yes, I suck. I'm retarded. I'm a moron.

Good night.

[Bneterasedmynam]

And you will see that it started when a CMA-ist, Homernoid, called me "****". Before his post there is nothing anti-asian in my posts.


Oww... Wanna list?

Stephen Turnbull: Secrets of the Samurai: The Martial Arts of Feudal Japan.
"Comparative studies of the materials employed by European and Japanese armor makers during the Middle Ages, and of the ways devised to forge and adapt them to protect the warrior, have shown the Europeans tended to put more emphasis upon size and weight, while the Japanese concentrated on mobility and lightness. In tactics, in fact, the European knight used both his own and his horse's heavy armor to strike the enemy, employing their full weight and momentum for this purpose.
... forcing him to resort to axes, maces, or cumbersome swords when battling an armored foe...
... By comparison with the samurai sword, a European knight's sword was dull and clumsy. A downward stroke from a crusader's blade might be expected to stun an opponent sufficiently to allow the knight to finish him off with a straight thrust. A samurai sword would do far more damage on the initial contact."
Read this god damn debunking thread! No falsehoods, right? Every line of this quote is full of ****. And he is a real academic and historian!!
Peter Woodward: The Medieval Broadsword "Primitive slashing weapon!" (SOURCE). As I mentioned, he's a fraud.
James Chambers: "Europeans swords were quite heavy, were primarily thrusting weapons and did not cut but stunned their opponents" (Vid1 Vid2). An olympic fencer, but also full of ****.
David Nicolle: The Crusades.
"Meanwhile the Islamic Middle East had little to learn from the Western European 'Franks', who remained inferior in almost all aspects of culture until the later 13th and 14th centuries."
But how does it come that actual historical sources tell us something different? Why european arms and armor were so desired by the East? Why to hell did Islam copied so much from Byzantine Christianity? Besides, David Nicolle is well known in the academic world for his "orientophilia".
Alan Baker: The Knight.
"[medieval swords weighted] up to twenty pounds and capable of crushing heavy armor with ease."
Utter bullshit, from a mathematical point of view.
John Matthews and Bob Stewart: Read this review!
It seems they simply took all the "common known Crusader facts" together, mostly based on Walter Scotts romantic fantasy books, and brought them on paper as "historical proven facts".

Should this be enough? We're here at Bullshido, where frauds and bullshitters get exposed - I gave you some. David Nicolle, by the way, appears frequently in Osprey - books. BTW I'm not a JMA or CMA hater, but I wish these guys would stop talking about things they know nothing about. Their claims of "superiority" piss me right off. I argue for parity, you Bullshidos!

Come on, all the kenning-critics, you can't be that blind and say "oh it's all well, no bullshit detected in all the popular media and common knowledge". How about our "experts" I posted above?? If you wee reading allt he stuff - you would simply believe anything they wrote, right? I even think this one would be good now: http://listverse.com/2009/01/07/top-...e-middle-ages/

And how many "facts that everyone knows" are now left?

As I said, I'm done with this thread, nothing more to add. If I only knew how to close it. Mods, it's on you now...

But this has nothing to do with my post, I was referring to people on this site not some author. And why the anger??

[Bneterasedmynam]

You do realize I was at least in the beginning agreeing with some of your points right?? In fact my only point was the practicality of using said styles in current times.