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  1. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 6:46pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Why do you keep bringing up the CMA thing?
    Because he is doing the exact thing he blames everyone else of doing. Look at his previous posts in this thread he tends to attack cma and jma rather than just defend his own style.
  2. kenning is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 7:29am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    Look at his previous posts in this thread he tends to attack cma and jma rather than just defend his own style.
    And you will see that it started when a CMA-ist, Homernoid, called me "****". Before his post there is nothing anti-asian in my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    Who here said anything about European swords being inferior??
    Oww... Wanna list?

    Stephen Turnbull: Secrets of the Samurai: The Martial Arts of Feudal Japan.
    "Comparative studies of the materials employed by European and Japanese armor makers during the Middle Ages, and of the ways devised to forge and adapt them to protect the warrior, have shown the Europeans tended to put more emphasis upon size and weight, while the Japanese concentrated on mobility and lightness. In tactics, in fact, the European knight used both his own and his horse's heavy armor to strike the enemy, employing their full weight and momentum for this purpose.
    ... forcing him to resort to axes, maces, or cumbersome swords when battling an armored foe...
    ... By comparison with the samurai sword, a European knight's sword was dull and clumsy. A downward stroke from a crusader's blade might be expected to stun an opponent sufficiently to allow the knight to finish him off with a straight thrust. A samurai sword would do far more damage on the initial contact.
    "
    Read this god damn debunking thread! No falsehoods, right? Every line of this quote is full of ****. And he is a real academic and historian!!
    Peter Woodward: The Medieval Broadsword "Primitive slashing weapon!" (SOURCE). As I mentioned, he's a fraud.
    James Chambers: "Europeans swords were quite heavy, were primarily thrusting weapons and did not cut but stunned their opponents" (Vid1 Vid2). An olympic fencer, but also full of ****.
    David Nicolle: The Crusades.
    "Meanwhile the Islamic Middle East had little to learn from the Western European 'Franks', who remained inferior in almost all aspects of culture until the later 13th and 14th centuries."
    But how does it come that actual historical sources tell us something different? Why european arms and armor were so desired by the East? Why to hell did Islam copied so much from Byzantine Christianity? Besides, David Nicolle is well known in the academic world for his "orientophilia".
    Alan Baker: The Knight.
    "[medieval swords weighted] up to twenty pounds and capable of crushing heavy armor with ease."
    Utter bullshit, from a mathematical point of view.
    John Matthews and Bob Stewart: Read this review!
    It seems they simply took all the "common known Crusader facts" together, mostly based on Walter Scotts romantic fantasy books, and brought them on paper as "historical proven facts".

    Should this be enough? We're here at Bullshido, where frauds and bullshitters get exposed - I gave you some. David Nicolle, by the way, appears frequently in Osprey - books. BTW I'm not a JMA or CMA hater, but I wish these guys would stop talking about things they know nothing about. Their claims of "superiority" piss me right off. I argue for parity, you Bullshidos!

    Come on, all the kenning-critics, you can't be that blind and say "oh it's all well, no bullshit detected in all the popular media and common knowledge". How about our "experts" I posted above?? If you wee reading allt he stuff - you would simply believe anything they wrote, right? I even think this one would be good now: http://listverse.com/2009/01/07/top-...e-middle-ages/

    And how many "facts that everyone knows" are now left?

    As I said, I'm done with this thread, nothing more to add. If I only knew how to close it. Mods, it's on you now...
    Last edited by kenning; 11/19/2011 7:43am at . Reason: something to add
  3. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 8:58am

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenning View Post
    Oww... Wanna list?

    Stephen Turnbull: Secrets of the Samurai: The Martial Arts of Feudal Japan.
    "Comparative studies of the materials employed by European and Japanese armor makers during the Middle Ages, and of the ways devised to forge and adapt them to protect the warrior, have shown the Europeans tended to put more emphasis upon size and weight, while the Japanese concentrated on mobility and lightness. In tactics, in fact, the European knight used both his own and his horse's heavy armor to strike the enemy, employing their full weight and momentum for this purpose.
    [I]... forcing him to resort to axes, maces, or cumbersome swords when battling an armored foe...
    ... "
    Are you posting stoned, just trolling or fucking what?.

    This paragraph you've just posted is not from a Turnbull book but from Ratti & Westbrook's Secrets of the Samurai, aka "the worst book on JMA ever published".
  4. kenning is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 9:13am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Are you posting stoned, just trolling or fucking what?.

    This paragraph you've just posted is not from a Turnbull book but from Ratti & Westbrook's Secrets of the Samurai, aka "the worst book on JMA ever published".
    Oh right, I kinda screwed the sources.
    Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook
    : Secrets of the Samurai: The Martial Arts of Feudal Japan.
    "Comparative studies of the materials employed by European and Japanese armor makers during the Middle Ages, and of the ways devised to forge and adapt them to protect the warrior, have shown the Europeans tended to put more emphasis upon size and weight, while the Japanese concentrated on mobility and lightness. In tactics, in fact, the European knight used both his own and his horse's heavy armor to strike the enemy, employing their full weight and momentum for this purpose.
    ... forcing him to resort to axes, maces, or cumbersome swords when battling an armored foe...
    Stephen Turnbull: The Samurai Sourcebook
    ... By comparison with the samurai sword, a European knight's sword was dull and clumsy. A downward stroke from a crusader's blade might be expected to stun an opponent sufficiently to allow the knight to finish him off with a straight thrust. A samurai sword would do far more damage on the initial contact.

    Better? The bullshit-o-meter is still tingling. Somehow all the guys write same things.

    Besides all that, it is completely normal that Asia lovers will **** bricks if Asia is exposed not to be a "super civilisation". Its not my first time and Im not the only one in the InternetZ who is aggressively blamed by asia loverz. Everyone remembers, I was insulted by Homernoid first...
    Last edited by kenning; 11/19/2011 9:24am at .
  5. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 11:02am

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenning View Post
    Oh right, I kinda screwed the sources[B].

    [/I]Stephen Turnbull: The Samurai Sourcebook
    ... By comparison with the samurai sword, a European knight's sword was dull and clumsy. A downward stroke from a crusader's blade might be expected to stun an opponent sufficiently to allow the knight to finish him off with a straight thrust. A samurai sword would do far more damage on the initial contact.

    Better?
    No.

    Page number? Because I'm not going to read 311 pages to check the accuracy and context of the quote.
  6. kenning is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 1:31pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    No.Page number? Because I'm not going to read 311 pages to check the accuracy and context of the quote.
    *sigh*
    Stephen Turnbull: The Samurai Sourcebook. 1998 p. 178 right above

    But hey, since we're there let's find more bullcrap!

    At page 122 we find this: "The samurai never used shields. Instead the katana became both sword and shield, providing a unique example of a sword used defensively as well as offensively. Such techniques were not seen at Europe until the late sixteenth century, when rapier styles evolved to include blocking and parrying as well as thrusting, and the buckler was abandoned."
    Medieval fighting manuals, both Italian and German in 14 and 15th centuries are FULL of displacing cuts, bindings and techniques which were a defensive displacing move and a cut/slash/thrust at the same time. Liechtenauers "Master Cuts" for example. Even Royal Armouries MS I.33 teaches us "obsessiones", which are indeed defensive moves, which are immediatly followed by a attack. Bucklers were used to cover the sword hand, NOT to strike the enemy blade aside.
    p. 122 "The defensive use of the samurai sword depended upon the immense strength and resilience of the sword's body and it's broad back..."
    p. 123"... Contemporary swords from other cultures would have broken if such a practise had been tried - a superiority in japanese design that was first illustrated during the Mongol invasions."
    Oh yeah, longsword, arming swords, Viking swords, and anything else sword-like in the world broke immediatly but only the super puper Katana was able to withstand a simple displacing cut.

    Dr. Stephen Turnbull, no clue about Europe but bullshitting around. In the HEMA world he even is considered AN ACADEMIC FRAUD! That's why I post it all on BULLSHIDO!

    ...
    Last edited by kenning; 11/19/2011 1:36pm at .
  7. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 1:45pm

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    An example of what's being linked to:

    Source one says, "Studies show X."

    Rebuttal says, "I'd like to see those studies!" A fair enough demand, but hardly evidence itself of academic fraud.

    Nor is pointing out that amateur historian A disagrees with amateur historian B on some issue, or that non-academic book X disagrees with non-academic book Y.
    Last edited by Rivington; 11/19/2011 1:48pm at .
  8. ChenPengFi is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 1:52pm

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quoting a bunch of books seems an odd way to respond to this:
    Who here said anything about European swords being inferior??
    (my bold)
  9. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 2:03pm

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    This reminds me of the time I saw the movie Midnight in Paris, in which a writer travels back in time to the Paris of the Lost Generation. He shows his novel to Gertrude Stein, who says that the book is a kind of "science fiction." But as the film's time travel scenes take place in the late 1920s and "science fiction" wasn't a term of art back then. (It appears once in a letter column of a "scientifiction" pulp mag in 1927, but after that isn't seen until 1930.) That was odd. Odd enough that I even pointed it out online.

    What I didn't do is spend a decade trolling the Internet, screaming at people about it and shouting "YOU'RE THE REAL RACISTS!" at anyone who said, "Huh?" in response to my rants.
  10. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2011 2:09pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenning View Post
    *sigh*
    Stephen Turnbull: The Samurai Sourcebook. 1998 p. 178 right above
    OK. Checked. The quote is correct.

    But hey, since we're there let's find more bullcrap!

    At page 122 we find this: "The samurai never used shields. Instead the katana became both sword and shield, providing a unique example of a sword used defensively as well as offensively. Such techniques were not seen at Europe until the late sixteenth century, when rapier styles evolved to include blocking and parrying as well as thrusting, and the buckler was abandoned."
    Yes, correct too.

    Medieval fighting manuals, both Italian and German in 14 and 15th centuries are FULL of displacing cuts, bindings and techniques which were a defensive displacing move and a cut/slash/thrust at the same time. Liechtenauers "Master Cuts" for example. Even Royal Armouries MS I.33 teaches us "obsessiones", which are indeed defensive moves, which are immediatly followed by a attack. Bucklers were used to cover the sword hand, NOT to strike the enemy blade aside.
    Were these manuals analyzed, and the results published under academic standards before Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook publishing date?. Because if he was working with the published data available at 1997-1998 you can't put much blame on him.

    p. 123"... Contemporary swords from other cultures would have broken if such a practise had been tried - a superiority in japanese design that was first illustrated during the Mongol invasions."
    Oh yeah, longsword, arming swords, Viking swords, and anything else sword-like in the world broke immediatly but only the super puper Katana was able to withstand a simple displacing cut.
    There's something missing. Turnbull talks about "knocking the attacking sword to one side with the flat of the blade" not a simple "displacing cut" as you say.

    I feel there's some intellectual dishonesty from your part regarding this issue.

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