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  1. Rock Ape is offline
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2011 11:26am

    staff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    Shotguns..............they still aren't the panacea folks , you *do* still have to aim it
    No one is suggesting you don't but, there's a world of difference in applying an "instinctive" (aimed) shot which is often fired from the hip (but always out of the shoulder) with a shotgun, vs. a rifle. The chances of success are vastly higher with a shotgun over a rifle - especially when you have very little warning of the impending threat, and or, you've just been woken from your sleep.

    Then let's consider how much room you have to maneuver the length of either the shotgun or rifle around within what might be a relatively confined space - like a hallway or stairs, often you won't have the time to position yourself or the weapon into a conventional means of aiming thus, having a weapon platform which is most likely to score a hit with the least amount of physical aiming wins hands down.

    Let's again discuss training, a rifle generally is a little more complex to operate than a shotgun, there's more possibility of mis-feeds and other malfunctions depending upon how the rifle is fed with it's rounds - remember to always think worse case - You've been startled, woken up or have the least amount of time possible to ready yourself. A shotgun trumps a rifle/pistol in a house almost all the time.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  2. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/25/2011 2:40pm


     Style: None

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    Shotguns..............they still aren't the panacea folks , you *do* still have to aim it , if you doubt this then pattern that open cylinder 18.5 sometime , you'll find the spread isn't what you think it is at house type ranges and OO or OOO buck is overpenetrative for urban defensive work , #1 buck works better , and a duplex load of #1 buck and #4 shot with it makes a defensive pattern at 20 feet or under that has to be seen to be believed.
    If I recall correctly, the expected spread of an 18.5″ cylinder bore 12 gauge firing buckshot (of unspecified diameter) is one inch per yard of travel. That certainly doesn't eliminate the need to aim...while I'm at it, I think Mossberg's “Spreader” .410 shotgun is ridiculous.

    I have an M1911A1 clone for home defense because my disability would make a shotgun a liability in the “I just woke up” scenario; my shotgun shopping list was a 20 gauge Mossberg 500 Special Purpose and some #4 Buck (Remington, I think). The sub-naught (I tend to use “naught” instead of “ought,” despite being American) buckshot sizes are a great compromise between effective terminal ballistics and reduced threat to unintended targets. Every time that guy on GunBlast recommends loading a defense shotgun with birdshot, I shudder.
  3. dwkfym is offline
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    Yours truly

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2011 2:17am

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     PDS Rifles Style: Univ. Florida Kickboxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, i don't get that bird shot thing either. When I used to have a shotgun, my load was #3 20ga buck. First 3 shots were #3, next two was 2.75 slug.
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  4. dwkfym is offline
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    Yours truly

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2011 2:19am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     PDS Rifles Style: Univ. Florida Kickboxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When i say large, I mean over 40lbs. The biggest dog I've owned so far is 32lbs when hes FAT and not working out.

    I really want an airedale. (sp)
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  5. searcher66071 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2011 9:58am


     Style: Karate-knockdown, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is just my opinion on the birdshot, but I am thinking it is about: 1.)scaring the crap out of the guy, 2.)waking yourself up, 3.) not overpenetrating on a miss.

    I personally(at least right this very minute)have a mix of #4 Buckshot and 3" Turkey loads(BB shot). No matter how it goes, I can do some pretty good damage with my load choices. My buckshot is nickle plated andis a bit hotter than an off the shelf load. My turkey loads are good ole' Federal off the shelf. My shotgun is an 18.5" Remmy 870 with an open choke. The spread on the thingis crazy.
  6. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2011 6:48pm


     Style: Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    No one is suggesting you don't but, there's a world of difference in applying an "instinctive" (aimed) shot which is often fired from the hip (but always out of the shoulder) with a shotgun, vs. a rifle. The chances of success are vastly higher with a shotgun over a rifle - especially when you have very little warning of the impending threat, and or, you've just been woken from your sleep.

    Then let's consider how much room you have to maneuver the length of either the shotgun or rifle around within what might be a relatively confined space - like a hallway or stairs, often you won't have the time to position yourself or the weapon into a conventional means of aiming thus, having a weapon platform which is most likely to score a hit with the least amount of physical aiming wins hands down.

    Let's again discuss training, a rifle generally is a little more complex to operate than a shotgun, there's more possibility of mis-feeds and other malfunctions depending upon how the rifle is fed with it's rounds - remember to always think worse case - You've been startled, woken up or have the least amount of time possible to ready yourself. A shotgun trumps a rifle/pistol in a house almost all the time.


    Once again all givens , and please note that I already stated that if things go bump in the night that in general a 12 gauge is first to hand.

    My only point is that folks still need to train with it , along with that they may hear certain mythical things that they would do well to pass on by.


    And living in the boonies a shotgun is an all purpose utility firearm/tool , from rattlesnakes to defense , quail for dinner and keep the bobcat off the hens.
  7. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2011 7:00pm


     Style: Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    If I recall correctly, the expected spread of an 18.5″ cylinder bore 12 gauge firing buckshot (of unspecified diameter) is one inch per yard of travel. That certainly doesn't eliminate the need to aim...while I'm at it, I think Mossberg's “Spreader” .410 shotgun is ridiculous.

    I have an M1911A1 clone for home defense because my disability would make a shotgun a liability in the “I just woke up” scenario; my shotgun shopping list was a 20 gauge Mossberg 500 Special Purpose and some #4 Buck (Remington, I think). The sub-naught (I tend to use “naught” instead of “ought,” despite being American) buckshot sizes are a great compromise between effective terminal ballistics and reduced threat to unintended targets. Every time that guy on GunBlast recommends loading a defense shotgun with birdshot, I shudder.

    In actual patterning it's a bit more than an inch a yard but that's close enough , and that neatly makes my point that you still have to aim , sometime just for reference shoot a sheet of 3/4 inch plywood with OO buck at various distances . Rather enlightening.
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