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  1. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 2:22pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    Well, I grew up in New York City.

    Spoiler:

    My honest opinion is that hostility towards guns from urban areas is mostly a cultural thing. I.e., city folk didn't grow up using them, don't really understand them, and are simply fearful because they only time they saw them is the last time they were getting mugged. Plus, there are all sorts of abstract cultural associations with firearms that uneducated people have from movies etc. that make them associate these objects with aggressive or adolescent behavior as demonstrated in entertainment mediums, rather than with pro-social and family traditional activities which they would see had they grown up in a firearms culture.

    In other words, hostility towards guns in cities, much like hostility towards guns in general, is a combination of ignorance, cultural abstractions, and aggregate statistics inappropriately applied to individual situations.

    That being said, it is certainly true that there is a lot of population density in cities and overpenetration has a high chance of threatening bystanders. This never seemed to stop the NYPD from dumping their mags at a perp, though. The solution isn't to try and restrict law abiding citizens from owning firearms. The simplest solution would be to have a city ordinance saying you must shoot frangible ammo when you're shooting someone for real. So for practice FMJs or LRNs are okay, but when you're loaded up for defense, you should have frangibles loaded. Second, I realize that there would be hostility on this board towards this suggestion, but ensure that all legal firearms owners have to attend a training that teaches them to draw from concealment and score a headshot on a target 20 feet away in 1 or 2 seconds, and/or a headshot from 20 feet while walking. With the frangible ammo this would minimize the number of rounds fired and thus the number of stray rounds. By this being in the official training it would help reduce criminal or civil liability for headshots, and would reduce public medical expenses for the perp who had been headshotted with a frangible round, since he'd be more likely to be dead. Finally it would help to prevent those sticky situations where a citizen defender gets in trouble for shooting someone more than once.
    I should probably spoiler my response to your spoiler...
    Spoiler:
    I agree with you for the most part, but I'm quite strongly against the frangible ammunition aspect. Any loading with sufficient terminal performance to stop a determined aggressor is going to endanger innocent bystanders with regard to wall penetration in the case of a missed shot: especially in apartments. This is the nature of the beast, a dichotomy of physics which no one in the field seems to have overcome—kind of like aerodynamic drag in Formula One racing. A solid illustration of this problem is Cor-Bon's "Pow'R Ball" ammunition: the expansion is so rapid and dramatic, virtually flattening the bullet, that penetration is too greatly limited by additional drag and lack of mass behind the expanded area.

    The above clearly illustrates my alignment with the "temporary wound channel doesn't matter" philosophy of terminal ballistics interpretation.
  2. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 2:47pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    I should probably spoiler my response to your spoiler...
    Spoiler:
    I agree with you for the most part, but I'm quite strongly against the frangible ammunition aspect. Any loading with sufficient terminal performance to stop a determined aggressor is going to endanger innocent bystanders with regard to wall penetration in the case of a missed shot: especially in apartments. This is the nature of the beast, a dichotomy of physics which no one in the field seems to have overcome—kind of like aerodynamic drag in Formula One racing. A solid illustration of this problem is Cor-Bon's "Pow'R Ball" ammunition: the expansion is so rapid and dramatic, virtually flattening the bullet, that penetration is too greatly limited by additional drag and lack of mass behind the expanded area.

    The above clearly illustrates my alignment with the "temporary wound channel doesn't matter" philosophy of terminal ballistics interpretation.



    Performance of the Glasers is documented , the jury is still out on frangibles otherwise , this question also leads to the " green bullet" movement and the effort to eradicate the use of lead in certain refuges across the country **not just for waterfowl and upland bird** , don't get caught in Calif hunting in a " Condor Zone" with lead based ammunition.

    This also leads back to proper ammunition choices in defensive ammunition , especially in an urban setting , using as an example a cartridge that hopefully won't start one of the usual what is best wars...........in .357 mag the 158 grain JSP or 162 grain Keith style hardcast that I load for small bear and hog defense when backpacking is thoroughly unsuitable for personal defensive usage , conversely my pet lightly jacketed SJHPs 110s or 125s aren't suitable for that scenario while well suited for defensive utilisation.

    And many times people will focus on speed of a given load to the exclusion of actual performance of the given projectile once it reaches target , there's quite a bit of over the counter commercial ammunition sold on the basis of a catchy name or a nasty looking slug as opposed to actual performance.

    And projectile construction does get increasingly important when you get to *real* speeds of course it goes without saying that *NO* existing sidearm provides as extreme of an example as the real fast .20s , the wildcat .22s ( centerfires) and some of the .24s. many of which will start shedding jackets and the like around the 4400-4500 fps mark with some slugs.

    Anyway , apology for the tangent , my point being that until frangible technology develops further then at least careful ammunition selection for the specific purpose could help to address some of these concerns and issues.

    And yes I keep Glasers around , in several cartridges.
  3. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 3:40pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've seen professional soldiers who train continuously and even more so just prior to deployment, **** up the simplest of skills when they're under the high intensity stress of someone trying to kill them. I've done that myself.

    Carrying a firearm isn't just about the skills and drills, it's about adopting a lifestyle and mentality suitable for the application of what would mostly result in deadly force should you discharge your weapon at another human being.

    I genuinely believe that the vast majority of folks who carry, don't have any concept of the psychology involved. I've been involved in fire fights and been subject to rocket attacks, and to this day, I still 'worry' about my actions. And I'm a trained infantry soldier.

    Training and re-training is the only way a person develops the confidence in himself and the kit they use to effectively operate it when the pressure piles on like a freight train hitting you.

    The first time I came under rocket attack whilst in Iraq, I near knocked myself out on the steel plate protective roof of my "coffin" as I intended to sit upright to don my kevlar. A valuable lesson.
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    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

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  4. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 5:25pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Folks who think that a dvd or a two day , or even weeklong seminar is " the answer and the end all" from some trendy guru with a flashy website and big print ad budget should reread what the Rock Ape wrote.
  5. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 9:26pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree, training is important. I used to practice every week. Fired about 2000 rounds a month at static and dynamic targets. I'm sure its not enough. I'm sure a lot of it is similar to combat, and a lot of it is different from combat.

    Regardless, many many people use their firearms, fired in anger or not, to stop dangerous felonies, usually without collateral damage. i'm way more worried about road rage and other stupid altercations that make it on the news sometimes.
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  6. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2011 11:27am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I hardly ever carry myself, even though I definitely practice more than the average bear.

    All the discussion of the psychology of when someone is trying to kill you makes me think that the best thing a person can do to defend themselves in the house is to keep the lights on downstairs at night, keep it pitch dark upstairs, and camp out at the head of the staircase (for a 2 story house obviously) with an AR. Hopefully even if you're spasmodically fearful or adrenal it is a lot harder to screw up an AR shot than it is to go wild on a pistol shot.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
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  7. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2011 11:58am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    All the discussion of the psychology of when someone is trying to kill you makes me think that the best thing a person can do to defend themselves in the house is to keep the lights on downstairs at night, keep it pitch dark upstairs, and camp out at the head of the staircase (for a 2 story house obviously) with an AR. Hopefully even if you're spasmodically fearful or adrenal it is a lot harder to screw up an AR shot than it is to go wild on a pistol shot.
    A shotgun would be better, even at close range you can conceivably miss with a rifle or pistol if you're shaking or startled, a shotgun however hehehe.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

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  8. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/25/2011 2:48am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    pistols are just bad for stopping people. I'd take a shotgun over a handgun for home defense any day, since I don't have problems of concealment and inconvenience at home.

    I'd take a large, well trained dog over a gun any day though. Especially at home.

    I used to carry. Every day. One of the few things I miss about Florida.
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  9. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2011 8:10am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dwkfym View Post
    pistols are just bad for stopping people. I'd take a shotgun over a handgun for home defense any day, since I don't have problems of concealment and inconvenience at home.

    I'd take a large, well trained dog over a gun any day though. Especially at home.

    I used to carry. Every day. One of the few things I miss about Florida.

    Depends entirely upon the dog. I keep dogs , of a variety of breeds , the hounds , terriers and my catch dogs are all confined. But two Blackmouth Curs and an Anatolian have the run of the place , one dog someone could stop , these three...doubtful they could get all three any way but from distance.

    And you don't necessarily have to have *large* and in point of fact the best working specimens in sevral of the manwork breeds aren't anywhere near the large end of their breeds size , take a look at a 55-60 lb working bloodline Malinois sometime working the sleeve , or an Airedale or any of the Bull Terriers , a 40 lb APBT or 30 ln StaffyBull from working bloodlines isn't something I'd care to go up against , though I do discourage folks from doing man work with the Bull terriers ...wrong breeds wrong aptitudes.

    The reason I utilise an LGD and the Blackmouths here is to keep the hogs off the immediate house/barn/garden area at night , a pure manwork breed wouldn't quite cut the mustard for that.

    Shotguns..............they still aren't the panacea folks , you *do* still have to aim it , if you doubt this then pattern that open cylinder 18.5 sometime , you'll find the spread isn't what you think it is at house type ranges and OO or OOO buck is overpenetrative for urban defensive work , #1 buck works better , and a duplex load of #1 buck and #4 shot with it makes a defensive pattern at 20 feet or under that has to be seen to be believed.

    Here in the boonies OO buck makes sense , in an urban environment...not so much. And yeah if something goes bump in the night 'round here what I reach for first is a 12 gauge , followed in short order by the apropriate sidearm for whatever is going on usually a 220 or a 1911 , occasionally a revolver ( what can I say , I happen to like wheelguns).............
  10. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2011 8:35am


     Style: Kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    By the way , on the issue of shotguns , somebody somewhere at some time ( if they haven't already) is going to run their yap at at given person about " yeah just the SOUND of a pump action shotgun will make the burglars/robbers/ badguys RUN "..............

    Think about this for a moment folks , you're in the dark and your assailant may be armed , do you REALLY want to give off an umistakeable sound signature that lets the potential assailant know that you're armed , what with and where you are. Chamber that round when you pick the thing up.

    And lights and lasers , watch when you turn on that light , marks your location , provides a target and destroys your night vision , a laser used improperly can give your position away. Don't get me wrong here , they've got their place but they aren't the crutch a lot of folks think they are.

    If you're going to carry a semi -auto , **make damn sure it feeds 100 percent reliably with your carry ammunition** , you could be betting your life on that reliability......and frankly I don't care *what* it is , I don't care how much you paid for it if you're carrying hardball because it won't feed anything else then **get rid of it** because it's JUNK no matter what name is on the slide. Don't bet your life on a crap sidearm.
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