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  1. Warchief is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 10:44am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo & Ju Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    You should give that some additional thought. Getting caught someplace like NYC or Illinois with a gun and without a valid permit is potentially very, very bad.

    It's not just getting pulled over. What if you have an accident? If it's in plain sight following an accident, you're screwed.
    Either way is it about risk assessment and deciding which of the risks is more acceptable. For the most part, I'm a believer in the adage that it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. There are times I've decide that decretion was called for and left my weapon at home. There have been other that I thought it appropriate to have my weapon readily accessible. Anytime you carry a weapon you are accept a risk that you may have to actually use it. Regardless where this happens there is going to be
    repercussions. Along with having a quality carry weapon, it is advisable to know and have access to a quality attorney that can assist in protecting you in a different venue.
  2. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 10:53am


     Style: Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any news on how this went on the floor?

    And BobbyCNinja brings forth the interesting point of how to close the barn door after the horse has left. Though I'm a " gun nut" I would have to come to the opinion that reciprocity should be left to the States to hash out between themselves.

    Unfortunately this is a polarising issue in this country , with of course the attendant result that the fanatics on either side of the issue get the press and common sense gets lost in the ensueing fray.

    And perhaps the roots run so deep culturally that the problem may never be solved. I hold some rather odd practices I guess , for instance my kids though growing up in an active shooting household never had a " toy gun" , they were taught from a very early age that a firearm is *never* at any time a " toy" and that it's always loaded , even if the action is open
    and I'm rather a freak about muzzle discipline and range discipline.

    As regards the CCW thing , perhaps in places the pendulum has swung too far , don't get me wrong here folks , I'm all for CCW. However not for every Tom , Dick , and Harry who can pick up a pen and fill out the application and then run out to buy what ever is cool in this months issue of Combat Handguns.

    Quite simply I personally feel that if you cannot demonstrate competence as regards both safety and shooting skills you shouldn't be allowed a CCW , and I'm quite inflexible on that issue.

    The whole problem of transportation to either hunting locations or sporting events through states with restrictive firearms and ammunition laws could be alleviated for most folks by a cursory examination of the rules of those states.

    New Jersey and the dreaded " hollowpoint law" being an example. I mean is it really all that much trouble to drop it in ammo cans and throw a lock on 'em? Yeah yeah it's a ridiculous law , but is it *really* that much of a hassle?

    If you're going to go through a state that doesn't honor your CCW how much trouble is it to just unload and drop it in the case and lock it up? Me well I won't risk the legal complications of illegal carry , not to mention the possibility of losing a 500 -3000 dollar sidearm.

    As an active enthusiast and shooter I beg of those who do intend to CCW , please PLEASE get some training from *competent* instructors prior to carrying. For your own sake , the sake of all firearms owners and the sake of the general public.

    Stray slugs choose their own targets.
  3. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    ...is THE PENETRATOR

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 11:00am

    supporting member
     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja View Post
    You know that's why we have too many shootings here in the city right? People having guns anyway, because of perceived high levels of danger.
    long...so, spoiler
    Spoiler:

    Most murders here go unsolved, same for shootings in general. A lady I know suffered through her toddler son being shot. Someone using your exception got in an argument, and missed. That's why tight gun laws are ok by me. That and the numerous friends my gf has discovered are now dead, due to handgun violence. Most of whom had **** all to do with any str33t stuff.

    I have quite a few LEO friends here, and I've never heard any of them complain about not enough guns here in the city, even when I brought it up. That tells me something. We argue about officers-on-scene vs. camera/response, or the Pats, or talk guitar...but citizens not having access to enough guns is not something they are foaming about. It's quite the opposite.

    In the countryside, in sparse states? I can see the need, but where things are dense, the risk of accident, crossfire, etc. is too great. I don't care where you came in from, if you're here in Boston, and you're not an LEO, or licensed via this state, it's not welcome. Suck it up, or **** off somewhere else.

    There's something more insultingly maternal to me, about pushing other states' gun laws onto ours, than expecting the police to do the police stuff. Anyone from the city want to weigh in?



    ^^^^^^
    Well, I grew up in New York City.

    Spoiler:

    My honest opinion is that hostility towards guns from urban areas is mostly a cultural thing. I.e., city folk didn't grow up using them, don't really understand them, and are simply fearful because they only time they saw them is the last time they were getting mugged. Plus, there are all sorts of abstract cultural associations with firearms that uneducated people have from movies etc. that make them associate these objects with aggressive or adolescent behavior as demonstrated in entertainment mediums, rather than with pro-social and family traditional activities which they would see had they grown up in a firearms culture.

    In other words, hostility towards guns in cities, much like hostility towards guns in general, is a combination of ignorance, cultural abstractions, and aggregate statistics inappropriately applied to individual situations.

    That being said, it is certainly true that there is a lot of population density in cities and overpenetration has a high chance of threatening bystanders. This never seemed to stop the NYPD from dumping their mags at a perp, though. The solution isn't to try and restrict law abiding citizens from owning firearms. The simplest solution would be to have a city ordinance saying you must shoot frangible ammo when you're shooting someone for real. So for practice FMJs or LRNs are okay, but when you're loaded up for defense, you should have frangibles loaded. Second, I realize that there would be hostility on this board towards this suggestion, but ensure that all legal firearms owners have to attend a training that teaches them to draw from concealment and score a headshot on a target 20 feet away in 1 or 2 seconds, and/or a headshot from 20 feet while walking. With the frangible ammo this would minimize the number of rounds fired and thus the number of stray rounds. By this being in the official training it would help reduce criminal or civil liability for headshots, and would reduce public medical expenses for the perp who had been headshotted with a frangible round, since he'd be more likely to be dead. Finally it would help to prevent those sticky situations where a citizen defender gets in trouble for shooting someone more than once.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  4. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 11:04am


     Style: Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Warchief View Post
    Either way is it about risk assessment and deciding which of the risks is more acceptable. For the most part, I'm a believer in the adage that it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. There are times I've decide that decretion was called for and left my weapon at home. There have been other that I thought it appropriate to have my weapon readily accessible. Anytime you carry a weapon you are accept a risk that you may have to actually use it. Regardless where this happens there is going to be
    repercussions. Along with having a quality carry weapon, it is advisable to know and have access to a quality attorney that can assist in protecting you in a different venue.

    I would cite the cultural differences and certain other pertinent factors. For instance in the open carry states nowadays it doesn't raise much of an eyebrow and is quite commonplace , in others it's inapropriate and falt out scares the crap out of folks who have been indoctrinated into the " all firearms bad" segment of our culture.

    I'd no more walk out the door on Kodiak ( or across on the Main) without a sidearm than attempt to fly , but I wouldn't even *attempt* to take a firearm of any sort into NYC.

    And thank you for highlighting those repercussions , regardless of folks personal opinion on the man himself it would well behoove a great many folks to read what Ayoob has written on this issue.

    And straight from Cooper himself " If you ever have to shoot an assaillant it will be over in seconds , the aftermath will last the rest of your life."
  5. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 11:15am


     Style: Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    Well, I grew up in New York City.

    Spoiler:

    My honest opinion is that hostility towards guns from urban areas is mostly a cultural thing. I.e., city folk didn't grow up using them, don't really understand them, and are simply fearful because they only time they saw them is the last time they were getting mugged. Plus, there are all sorts of abstract cultural associations with firearms that uneducated people have from movies etc. that make them associate these objects with aggressive or adolescent behavior as demonstrated in entertainment mediums, rather than with pro-social and family traditional activities which they would see had they grown up in a firearms culture.

    In other words, hostility towards guns in cities, much like hostility towards guns in general, is a combination of ignorance, cultural abstractions, and aggregate statistics inappropriately applied to individual situations.

    That being said, it is certainly true that there is a lot of population density in cities and overpenetration has a high chance of threatening bystanders. This never seemed to stop the NYPD from dumping their mags at a perp, though. The solution isn't to try and restrict law abiding citizens from owning firearms. The simplest solution would be to have a city ordinance saying you must shoot frangible ammo when you're shooting someone for real. So for practice FMJs or LRNs are okay, but when you're loaded up for defense, you should have frangibles loaded. Second, I realize that there would be hostility on this board towards this suggestion, but ensure that all legal firearms owners have to attend a training that teaches them to draw from concealment and score a headshot on a target 20 feet away in 1 or 2 seconds, and/or a headshot from 20 feet while walking. With the frangible ammo this would minimize the number of rounds fired and thus the number of stray rounds. By this being in the official training it would help reduce criminal or civil liability for headshots, and would reduce public medical expenses for the perp who had been headshotted with a frangible round, since he'd be more likely to be dead. Finally it would help to prevent those sticky situations where a citizen defender gets in trouble for shooting someone more than once.


    Amen. A thousand plus Amens.


    And bringing forth the point about the now common "spray and pray" syndrome along with the pojnt I made as regards adequate training.

    And oh the myths as regards ammunition. I cringe when I hear folks that live in an apartment talking about loading up with hardball , or the fools who have seen Dirty Harry one too many times.

    An apropriate sidearm for far North carry is completely inapropriate for urban defensive carry.

    If you handload ( and especially if you cast and/or swage) it's relatively easy to tailor the ammunition to the purpose,
  6. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 12:41pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Spray and pray....people thinking that they will make those nice, well aimed, double tap shots when someone is actually trying to kill them will be in for a surprise if they ever get into a real shooting vs what they believe they will do. Regardless of their training.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
  7. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 1:04pm


     Style: Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Spray and pray....people thinking that they will make those nice, well aimed, double tap shots when someone is actually trying to kill them will be in for a surprise if they ever get into a real shooting vs what they believe they will do. Regardless of their training.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

    What you state is of course inargueable , however my point is that folks should get some training , which I'm certain you'll agree with. Big difference between an LEO or other working professional who does it under extreme pressure of battle conditions is different from idiots who unload a whole mag because they " heard a noise". I won't go to certain public ranges round here anymore because of the detoriation in range discipline due to such fools.
  8. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 1:06pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    What you state is of course inargueable , however my point is that folks should get some training , which I'm certain you'll agree with. Big difference between an LEO or other working professional who does it under extreme pressure of battle conditions is different from idiots who unload a whole mag because they " heard a noise". I won't go to certain public ranges round here anymore because of the detoriation in range discipline due to such fools.
    Absolute agreement......

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
  9. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 1:38pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's not what training you get but how often you get to re-train and apply those skills.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  10. Jazzman is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2011 2:18pm


     Style: Kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    It's not what training you get but how often you get to re-train and apply those skills.


    I would completely agree with the constant retraining and skills practice , that said I really personally feel that the quality of initial instruction makes a goodly deal of difference. Seems like there are now a plethora of hucksters exploiting folks fears to sell all sorts of
    " Combat PistolCraft" courses to folks whom end up with a false sense of confidence at best and outright dangerous to the public at worst.

    If people didn't develop some of the bad habits in the first place they'd be ahead of the game. How many folks you see slapping the trigger and flinching on the rifle range?

    Then you've got the clowns that just got their CCW and just absolutely have to let everyone in the world know they're armed , gotta let their jacket fall open so we can see the brand new just like in the movies Bianchi shoulder rig they just got , amking sure they bend so a flat pancake prints for everybody around etc. , yeah yeah I sound like a sourpuss curmudgeon , but soon in this country you won't even be able to go to the range and ring the gongs because of idiots and fanatics. On BOTH sides of the issue.
    Last edited by Jazzman; 11/23/2011 2:23pm at .
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