FMA stick twirling and application

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 11/09/2011 1:49pm

Originally Posted by Pharabus

Passing the stick behind the head may be after a payong or umbrella block, so payong would be kind of like the right hand stick making the roof of the house on the left hand side, to move into the next strike you would (or rather could) pass the stick behind the head depending on what angle you wanted to attack

Yeah, that sounds like it. So it is an option to pass behing the head or back the way you came?

**Pharabus** · Posted On: 11/09/2011 2:34pm

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

Yeah, that sounds like it. So it is an option to pass behing the head or back the way you came?

That's essentially what I was getting at yes, I don't know the Diamond Siniwali mentioned in Chili's post (or at least dont recognise it by that name) so it may be worth looking at that to see if that is similar as well,

One drill we do is hit payong heaven six which is forehand backhand payong (with initial hand) then heaven 6 (forehand backhand backhand), that causes the payong hand to come behind the head ready for the 3rd strike

**Chili Pepper** · Posted On: 11/09/2011 3:02pm

So, "standard" double sinawali runs:
1. Forehand lobtik
2. Backhand lobtik
3. Backhand witik
Repeat

Diamond sinawali runs:
1. Forehand lobtik
2a. That hand continues its motion, to make a full circle around the head, returning it to its starting point.
2b. Backhand lobtik
3. Forehand lobtik
Repeat

That second forehand lobtik really hits hard thanks to the windup - practice against smaller training partners if possible ;-)

**Pharabus** · Posted On: 11/09/2011 3:07pm

Originally Posted by Chili Pepper

So, "standard" double sinawali runs:
1. Forehand lobtik
2. Backhand lobtik
3. Backhand witik
Repeat

Diamond sinawali runs:
1. Forehand lobtik
2a. That hand continues its motion, to make a full circle around the head, returning it to its starting point.
2b. Backhand lobtik
3. Forehand lobtik
Repeat

That second forehand lobtik really hits hard thanks to the windup - practice against smaller training partners if possible ;-)

That seems similar to the drill I described except we do the 3 heaven steps on each hand after the forehand payong, backhand elestica (if that makes any sense!) using your (much better) descriptive

1. Forehand
2a. Payong circle motion behind head
2b. Backhand elastico
3. Forehand
4. Backhand
5. Backhand
Repeat

actually I may have messed my terminology up here was not 100% sure or lobtic and witik to me is a wrist snap which is not how we drill

**Chili Pepper** · Posted On: 11/09/2011 4:06pm

Originally Posted by Pharabus

actually I may have messed my terminology up here was not 100% sure or lobtic and witik to me is a wrist snap which is not how we drill

Lobtik would be a strike that starts at one side of the body and continues to the other - a slash, essentially. A witik starts on one side of the body and stays on that side - more of a rap or chop motion.

**jspeedy** · Posted On: 11/09/2011 6:17pm

Originally Posted by tim_stl

It all depends on how you define twirling. Generally, when people say 'twirling' they mean making circles with the stick in a way that has no practical application. For instance, I don't know of anyone who calls redondos 'twirling.' If I can explain the practicality of movements that someone would call twirling, does it cease being twirling? If not, could you outline the difference between something like redondos and twirling?
Tim

I'm not really sure what redondos are so I can't describe the difference between that and twirling. That's one thing about my style of Arnis that has concerned me in the past. We don't really use any Filipino terms for what we do, we train abanico strikes but they are often just referred to as "flicks". We don't use the term twirling for the few strikes of that variety we do either, we refer to them as double strikes and triple strikes. I mainly used the term twirling to describe what the motion of the double strikes we train look like. I've heard twirling used usually in a negative sense by other eskrimadors, so I'm not even sure that any group actually refers to a particular strike or technique they practice as twirling.

As for your question: "If I can explain the practicality of movements that someone would call twirling, does it cease being twirling?"

I would say no, but I guess ut depends on how you define the word twirling as you mentioned. If you consider twirling to exclusively mean a move that has no martial application than by that definition a move that does have martial application ceases to be considered twirling. If twirling is just a general term for the 360 degree rotation of the stick used for some strikes than I suppose a strike that has practical martial application can still be considered a twirling strike.

I hope I didn't take that and run too far with it and lose everyone. Either way if a twirl is a motion intended to have practical application I question the effectiveness of such a technique.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 11/09/2011 9:00pm

Ok, I tried some of those behind the head moves tonight and definitely could see the increase in power you were talking about! Thanks for the help!

@speedy, I definitely was confused by the twirling terminology because I thought twirling was just where you spin the stick in your hand by opening up your hand and letting the stick spin between your thumb and pointer finger.

**jspeedy** · Posted On: 11/09/2011 11:48pm

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

Ok, I tried some of those behind the head moves tonight and definitely could see the increase in power you were talking about! Thanks for the help!

@speedy, I definitely was confused by the twirling terminology because I thought twirling was just where you spin the stick in your hand by opening up your hand and letting the stick spin between your thumb and pointer finger.

Yeah, I didn't even consider the interpretations of the word when I made the OP. I was using the term twirling to describe any general 360 deg. rotation motion of a type of strike. More specifically to give a general idea of the double and triple strikes we do in a specific form. In the OP I even acknowledged that every use of the word twirling I was familiar with was a negative term but I overlooked that and made up my own interpretation of the word twirling.

I suppose if a twirling strike can not have any practical martial use than the double strikes i've described either aren't true "twirling" (i.e. no martial value) or they are just an attempt by my instructor to give a practical use to something that has no real martial value, kind of like the secret applications (bunkai? maybe) that George Dillman professes for his kata. Perhaps that is why my styles' GM removed the double strikes from the shadow fighting form I described earlier.

Is anyone else aware of martial applications for double strikes? So far the replies I recall are the twirling techniques are purely for show, or to instill confidence and familiarity wielding the stick, and/or to train wrist flexiblity, but no actual martial value.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 11/10/2011 12:58am

In my view, twirling is circles or figure eights applied with continuity. Does that have fighting application? Sure, used intelligently. Linking circular motions can be used to force a block high and strike across the torso or leg. They can be used to block then counter fluidly. They can be used to insert a wrap/sunkiti/doblado before a standard strike. But less subtly, they are used to recover after a power forehand or backhand. After a hard fast swing, the energy has to either bleed off in a controlled circle or be forcefully stopped. This motion is what some people call a tail, and with the proper dexterity the tail can load up a power shot in the other direction. On the other hand while twirling can be applicable, it is not necessarily applicable.

**Chili Pepper** · Posted On: 11/10/2011 9:26am

Originally Posted by jspeedy

I'm not really sure what redondos are so I can't describe the difference between that and twirling.

A redondo is a vertical, downward strike, either forehand or backhand, where the stick stays on the same side of the body, and the hand/forearm makes a complete 360-degree rotation. Easier to understand if you saw it, but I can't find any youtube clips.

That's one thing about my style of Arnis that has concerned me in the past. We don't really use any Filipino terms for what we do

I try not to use too many Filipino terms, for a couple reasons.

First, I just assume I'm mangling the pronounciation.

Second, the terms aren't universal - f'rinstance, I was taught the term dumog for grappling, but in some dialects, it means "a fight to the death" and buno is the term for grappling. Not a good mistake to make. Or mention that you were practicing hubud and get weird looks from the Pinoy who wonders why you got half-naked.

Third, I don't need people getting confused about what I'm asking 'em to do. If it's a specific term (like when I use largo, medio, corto in discussions about range) it is because I'm talking about a very specific context.