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View Poll Results: Is carrying a sidearm without a round in the chamber acceptable, or not?

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  • Acceptable

    16 51.61%
  • Not acceptable

    15 48.39%
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  1. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/26/2012 8:44am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post
    It's not that a gun will shoot itself, but when you reach for it too quickly and, for example, it catches in the holster, you accidently use your trigger finger, it slips, what have you, there is an opportunity to make your bad situation (being attacked) worse (being attacked with a self inflicted wound, of having injured some one you didn't intend to shoot). The whole idea is make sure you have control of the weapon when a bullet is in the chamber. When its n your hand and ready to fire, round in the chamber. When it's in the holster, chamber empty. That is the concept in a nutshell.
    If you "accidentally" grab the trigger when pulling your gun, then you have not been properly trained to use the thing. That means you don't even have enough training to put your hand on your gun. You should not be carrying around a gun. End of story.

    "Putting 5 rounds into a 6 shot revolver is the dumbest thing I ever heard." It's called a cowboy carry. It's very common in Texas and the South. It's a passive safety measure for a revolver. Ask around.
    Very common? Where do you live? I was born and raised in the south. No one I know carrys a revolver missing a round. And the first gun I qualified on was a 38. Still have one, and still shoot it. NEVER would I need to leave a round out of the gun. If your line of thought is correct, why do speed loaders have 6 rounds in them? Why bother with all the internal safeties? The reason is because it is not an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post
    To explain why guns are special, and deserve special consideration, comparison helps. You can't stab yourself in the leg with a knife with improper draw technique. You can with a bad draw or a bad reholstering of a pistol.
    Have you ever trained in stick fighting or knife fighting? You don't think you can cut yourself pulling out a knife? Well, that's ignorant as hell! When compairing knife, stick, gun you have all kinds of different ranges, aplications, grips, and a way different use of force continuum that you are working with. Qualify your knife and stick training before we will discuss this further. And really, put it in a different thread because it is a strawman that has nothing to do with this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post
    So what did you say about hobbyist shooters, my concerns about accidental discharge when drawing, my concerns about the safety of a chambered round outside of your direct control, and any drawbacks for shooting?
    Hobbyist shooters should be shooting in a range or fire line. There is NO reason that you should be so stressed out on the fire line that you are not able to grip and pull your gun correctly. If you can not do this correctly every time. Sell that gun and get a fly swatter.
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  2. chainpunch is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2012 8:56am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post
    For my revolver, I had a stainless steel S&W revolver with six inch barrel/lug. I kept the chamber under the hammer empty and but the other chambers loaded. A five shot six shooter. But safe. I never drew from a holster with it.
    You are not doing anything safer than if it were loaded with 6 shots. The empty chamber can not fire even if it were loaded with a round because if you accidentally pull the trigger the next chamber is the one that will fire. There is no way a double action revolver can fire the current cylinder when the hammer is down. Even a single action pistol with the hammer forward wont do this.

    A double action revolver with a round in the next chamber is the same as a double action auto loader with a round in the chamber as they both require the trigger to be pulled.

    It sounds as you have been instructed by someone who was instructed by another that learned 100 or more years ago. In our age there are a few safety point that are constantly stated all over the place:

    - always treat the weapon as its ready to fire even when you know its empty
    - never point the weapon at anything you dont want to shoot
    - keep your finger off of the trigger until you have acquired your target and know that there is nothing around your target that you dont want to inadvertently shoot

    No teasing, no insults, you are not stupid, you just dont know enough about how modern firearms are handled and how modern people train to know that firearms are safe and you must be vigilant to be competent. If you dont carry your weapon in condition 0/1 that's okay but if you cant trust yourself to do so you should consider more training.
    Last edited by chainpunch; 1/26/2012 8:58am at . Reason: spell
  3. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/26/2012 11:10am

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post
    Not really. A double action revolver will have a heavy enough trigger pull to discourage discharge from an improper pull. The first squeeze will be long, but it will cycle you to a live chamber. But if you drop the gun, there is no bullet under the hammer to go off. If you carry a loaded weapon in a vehicle, an empty chamber is must.

    If you are highly/regularly trained, then carrying a bullet in the chamber may be safe for you. For me, a bullet in the chamber of a weapon that is not in my hand makes me sweat, period. It is not that I can't control my weapon, it's that I can only control my weapon when it is in my hand. The holster or the vehicle carrying case are grey areas. When the gun is in my hand you will probably not get it out of my hand, I will probably not drop it, and the gun, should it go off, will be pointed in a direction that I want it to go off in. That's not necessarily true otherwise.

    In general, most people are not professionally trained, and there is a significant danger to the shooter from their own improperly executed quick draw, reholstering a weapon when the the hammer is back and the trigger is set for a light single action pull, whatever. In those cases, it is better to be honest about your skill level and train for what you can realistically execute. The question was whether or not an empty chamber is valid. From a safety perspective, sometimes an empty chamber is valid.

    What idiot wants everybody in the country walking around with live ammo under the hammer all the time?

    Once again, most modern revolvers and handguns have internal safety devices that prevent the firing pin from contacting the round unless the trigger is pulled. Its not a difficult concept. If you sweat at the mere thought of carrying a properly loaded weapon you probably should not be handling a firearm unsupervised. You keep spoting that this or that is a "must" but your actual knowledge of anything firearms related seems rather thin. Read more, post less.
  4. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/26/2012 7:35pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post
    "Putting 5 rounds into a 6 shot revolver is the dumbest thing I ever heard." It's called a cowboy carry. It's very common in Texas and the South. It's a passive safety measure for a revolver. Ask around.

    Where specifically were you taught about the mechanics of firearms and firearms use in the US?
  5. qbe9584 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2012 10:56pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fair enough. From an earlier post, I have been looking at the drop in numbers for accidental discharges. They make your point. I will no longer leave an empty cylinder.

    Look, I freely admit that the guy who trained me worked with older pistols. I also admit to being a hobbyist, and not being able to get large amounts of range time. I approach it from a safety situation. When you carry a gun in a car or on your person, I was instructed clearly, and it made sense to me, to keep the bullet away from the hammer as much as possible.

    In terms of an automatic pistol, when would you not keep a round in the chamber? When you are carrying, when would you keep an empty chamber?
  6. qbe9584 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2012 11:10pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quantico Virginia in the Scouts and at firing ranges mainly. I was trained mostly by military folks, and took marksmanship courses and enjoyed firing pistols.

    In Texas, I studied with a group of folks in Phillipine martial arts for two years whose instructor incorporated elements into defensive firearms practice at extreme close range. He was a tactical instructor for the DPS. I classify myself as a hobbyist at best.

    My defense requirements were for home use and I prepared for home invasion: valuables in the living room, lock on the bedroom door, bed off center from the door, phone in the bedroom, and coordination with roommates about who does what and when. Hobbyist and amateur all.

    Gauging my own skill with pulling from a holster in a hurry, I did not feel safe when I did, and would rather take an extra step to chamber a round than panic squeeze a bullet. I never carried a gun concealed or openly in public, so don't sweat that. But, in consideration to someone with my lack of skill, safety concerns and so on, if a gun was my only immediate means of defense, would you recommend that I have a round in the chamber at all times? I've seen speed shooters and cops who do fine. I'm not them. If you would, what should be the training focus for safety?
  7. chemsoldier is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2012 11:12pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I personally keep the firearm with a round chambered whenever it is on "defensive duty." So, holstered on my person, or when located in a location where I intend for it to be accessible for defensive use such as in my pistol safe on my night stand. Firearms in the big safe are kept completely unloaded as they are not readily accessible for defense.
  8. qbe9584 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2012 12:36am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by chainpunch View Post
    You are not doing anything safer than if it were loaded with 6 shots. The empty chamber can not fire even if it were loaded with a round because if you accidentally pull the trigger the next chamber is the one that will fire. There is no way a double action revolver can fire the current cylinder when the hammer is down. Even a single action pistol with the hammer forward wont do this.

    A double action revolver with a round in the next chamber is the same as a double action auto loader with a round in the chamber as they both require the trigger to be pulled.

    It sounds as you have been instructed by someone who was instructed by another that learned 100 or more years ago. In our age there are a few safety point that are constantly stated all over the place:

    - always treat the weapon as its ready to fire even when you know its empty
    - never point the weapon at anything you dont want to shoot
    - keep your finger off of the trigger until you have acquired your target and know that there is nothing around your target that you dont want to inadvertently shoot

    No teasing, no insults, you are not stupid, you just dont know enough about how modern firearms are handled and how modern people train to know that firearms are safe and you must be vigilant to be competent. If you dont carry your weapon in condition 0/1 that's okay but if you cant trust yourself to do so you should consider more training.
    I'd love to get more training when I get back to the States. Maybe this year depending on how the dissertation goes. I was not trying to use an empty chamber to supplant responsible handling, because at no point do I feel that the gun is safe. I feel it is safest when it's being actively controlled in my hand or when it's broken down, but in any other state I am waiting for it to go off. The axiom was "There is no such thing as a foolproof gun." I will accept that I have anachronistic views on passive safeties and the safety of weapons in general. In my own defense, at least it wasn't nonchalance. I'll look for a trainer in Austin when I get back and spend some months getting brought up to date.

    If I can get your opinion, what are the guidelines you keep for carrying a weapon safely in a crowd?
  9. qbe9584 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2012 12:57am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    -If you "accidentally" grab the trigger when pulling your gun, then you have not been properly trained to use the thing. That means you don't even have enough training to put your hand on your gun. You should not be carrying around a gun. End of story.-

    Fair enough. I don't. My main defensive needs would be for home. I got what training I could get, when I could get it. I didn't "accidently" grab the trigger, my finger occassionally went past the trigger guard if I pulled the pistol too quickly. The most shooting I got was weekly sessions and maybe an hour tops. I am hobbyist shooter with defensive requirements. Your preference would not change my requirements.

    -Very common? Where do you live? I was born and raised in the south. No one I know carrys a revolver missing a round. And the first gun I qualified on was a 38. Still have one, and still shoot it. NEVER would I need to leave a round out of the gun. If your line of thought is correct, why do speed loaders have 6 rounds in them? Why bother with all the internal safeties? The reason is because it is not an issue.-

    Then maybe it's a generational thing, or a circle of acquaintances. If you are a pro or sport shooter, your circle may not do that. I am a hobbyist who shoots with other hobbyists. Call it a folk tale, but that's the one we tell. Nobody trusts passive safties to work, and they all handle the guns like the gun wants to go off. So sue us.


    -Have you ever trained in stick fighting or knife fighting? You don't think you can cut yourself pulling out a knife? Well, that's ignorant as hell! When compairing knife, stick, gun you have all kinds of different ranges, aplications, grips, and a way different use of force continuum that you are working with. Qualify your knife and stick training before we will discuss this further. And really, put it in a different thread because it is a strawman that has nothing to do with this thread.-

    It is not a strawman, it's an example for comparison. If I'm pulling a baton or a knife, I don't sweat those as much because of range and strength. The energy required to pull either free is not likely to enough energy to hurt myself even if something goes wrong. But, a gun is full strength impact with the misapplication of few pounds of pressure on one finger. If I have a bad draw, the friends I am with can be hurt badly even if I am not near them, or I am incapacitated. A gun deserves special consideration because of its power and range. Maybe I am reading these posts wrong, but there are some seriously nonchalant dudes on this thread.


    -Hobbyist shooters should be shooting in a range or fire line. There is NO reason that you should be so stressed out on the fire line that you are not able to grip and pull your gun correctly. If you can not do this correctly every time. Sell that gun and get a fly swatter.[/QUOTE]-

    If I can't do it correctly every time, I'm human and need to be realistic about what I can and can't execute safely. Empty chamber carry may not be valid for you if you have the training. But I don't have that training and I can be honest about it. Would you say that carrying with an empty chamber might be valid for someone who doesn't have access to primo training and daily range access for practice? Maybe? Possibly?
    Last edited by qbe9584; 1/27/2012 1:15am at . Reason: clarity
  10. Prone is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2012 4:40am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am a shooting instructor for the reserve now and was a shooting instructor for the military police when I was still active. So yes: Whoever said that Military personell is usually not very good at using handguns, is correct. Usually they are proficient with the G36 (and variations). I also was involved (albeit in a very unimportant role) while the German army tested handguns to get the old P1 out of the system. We worked with SIG, Glock and Heckler & Koch on that matter.

    Just my two cents on the topic:

    1. It has been said but it needs to be stressed: If you use a modern, military or LE approved semi-automatic handgun, even a fully loaded handgun with hammer cocked (if it has an outside hammer, most don't) will not fire if it falls down. We did this for testing purposes and let a lot of different handguns fall down a 20 metre tube (loaded and ready for fire) and NOT ONE did fire. The weapon was sometimes pretty destroyed (mainly hammer when a handgun with outside hammer) but NOT ONCE there was a problem with discharge.

    2. If you are not trained to operate a handgun, don't carry a gun. If you think you could pull the trigger while getting ready from holstered position, don't fucking carry a gun. Yes, it takes practice that you move perfectly and use your fingers right but if I EVER see someone in my group putting his finger on the trigger while drawing, I will make sure he never touches a gun again.

    Training includes crowded environments btw so that reasoning with "but what if someone steals my gun" is bullshit. If you lose your gun, you will most probably be shot. So make sure you don't get into that situation. This means using a line to secure your gun to the holster.

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