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View Poll Results: Is carrying a sidearm without a round in the chamber acceptable, or not?

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  • Acceptable

    16 51.61%
  • Not acceptable

    15 48.39%
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  1. qbe9584 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2012 9:53am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He was doing his stuff in the 70's. Old dog new tricks? Passive safeties sucked back then, and he never trusted active safeties as requiring too much fine motor control. He would have the pistol out and the round chambered when he was ready to shoot, but when in the holster, he kept the chamber empty. Also, he taught me to sight shoot and pistol but said he did not use sights when he shot pistols at close range (okay, lots of range time for him, I suppose).
  2. qbe9584 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2012 10:00am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The holsters I had were clip holsters for the small of the back. I only had two and both were synthetic fiber. I used a friends 9mm browning high power, and a Sig Sauer P226. Nice guns both. The chamber was empty, but the magazine was full.

    For my revolver, I had a stainless steel S&W revolver with six inch barrel/lug. I kept the chamber under the hammer empty and but the other chambers loaded. A five shot six shooter. But safe. I never drew from a holster with it.
  3. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2012 10:34am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=qbe9584;2656290]
    Quote Originally Posted by devil View Post
    "Most training ranges will eventually see the “late, great leg shot,” as one instructor described it. This type of ND is usually caused by trying to holster a weapon with your finger still on the trigger.
    .
    This was my point. Accidental Discharge when dealing with a holster is usually done when putting the pistol in the holster. Not when the pistol is already holstered.
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  4. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2012 10:38am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post
    For my revolver, I had a stainless steel S&W revolver with six inch barrel/lug. I kept the chamber under the hammer empty and but the other chambers loaded. A five shot six shooter. But safe. I never drew from a holster with it.
    So you are seriously saying that you would walk around with a revolver that only had 5 bullets in there? And so if you needed to pull it, you will have to fire twice to shoot. I think that you would be better off just not carrying at all since you are so concerned about not being able to control your own weapon.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  5. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2012 11:18am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=Diesel_tke;2656305]
    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post

    This was my point. Accidental Discharge when dealing with a holster is usually done when putting the pistol in the holster. Not when the pistol is already holstered.
    Not sure how that ended up looking like a quote from me. For the record, I didn't say that. QBE did.

    Weird. Now my quote is wrong too. Something funny is going on with the quote function.
  6. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2012 11:33am

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    Quote Originally Posted by devil View Post
    Not sure how that ended up looking like a quote from me. For the record, I didn't say that. QBE did.

    Weird. Now my quote is wrong too. Something funny is going on with the quote function.
    Oh, I see what happened. He ef'd up his quote which ef'd up mine. Sorry about that.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  7. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2012 11:36am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=qbe9584;2656290]
    Quote Originally Posted by devil View Post
    Okay, I'm convinced. You are in fact a fucking idiot. You do realize virtually every cop in America carries their pistol with a round in the chamber, right? And they miraculously manage to not shoot themselves. With a proper holster and the proper training, it's a non-issue.

    You're also way off base with your "evidence" from the Marine Corps officer. Keep in mind, he can afford to carry condition 3 because he's got an M-16 in his hands...which has a round in the chamber. The pistol is just a backup.[/QUOT


    No, he was in Vietnam and he did work clearing out earthworks. That required a pistol and a flashlight. He was okay with a rifle, but had a platoon to handle most of that. The key here is that he had pistols in an age before reliable passive safeties. To cede the point to the other side, if you have a firing pin block like in glock or a sig sauer, then you can get away with it.

    But nobody here has presented an argument for safety. Except of course that accidental discharges NEVER happen, which puts you into neckbeard territory right there. My condolences when you accidentally shoot someone in the future.

    Accidental Discharge is the number three cause of firearm deaths after suicide and homicide according to the CDC.
    http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/f/fire...jury/stats.htm

    Also, I'm not a law enforcement officer. I am a hobbyist. Most everyone here is. So I will quote the pro's here:

    "Most training ranges will eventually see the “late, great leg shot,” as one instructor described it. This type of ND is usually caused by trying to holster a weapon with your finger still on the trigger. Depending on holster design and placement, this error generally causes a grazing wound down the side of the leg, or sometimes a through and through hole in the strong side buttock. Often, the only permanent damage suffered by one of these officers is hearing the; “jumped up and bit me in the butt-tocks” comments from their co-workers -- usually in the Forrest Gump voice. Clearly, this is a violation of safety rule #3 and the solution is to constantly emphasize the need for a straight finger, except when on target."

    So their solution is a loaded barrel with a light finger. My hands clench when I reach for a gun. I have to extend my trigger finger to operate the pistol safely. So, I cowboy carry, or take the extra step and chamber a round before I fire. I am not fast, but I am safe. I was taught this by an old fella who did ok with a pistol when I was near Quantico. He explained the safety reasons to me and they seem sound.

    Nobody has addressed this except to say that it never happens with the trained police of the US, except the police say it does, even in low pressure situations like a shooting range. And there is no way I am getting anywhere near the range time a cop can get while I am in Korea. Keeping the chamber empty is a valid way to combat accidental discharge. Accidental discharge happens. I'm not saying keep the gun unloaded in the holster, but let's not pretend we're all Buffalo Bill King of The Singing Cowboys and shoot ourselves or someone else by accident.
    Qbe9584 - there's so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to start. By "clearing out earthworks" I assume you mean tunnels. Trust me, anyone in a fucking tunnel expecting to encounter an enemy would have his **** chambered and off safe. So I don't know what that has to do with your argument about holstered carry.

    I doubt your story anyway because not too many officers got called on to be tunnel rats.

    The fact that accidental discharges happen doesn't mean it isn't safe to carry a pistol with a round chambered. An accidental discharge can happen any time you handle a weapon if you **** up. It could just as easily happen when you pull your pistol under stress and try to chamber a round.

    Your AD statistics are bullshit too because they include every possible type of accidental discharge. Drunk assholes cleaning loaded guns, kids who shoot their friend because dad left a loaded gun where they could access it, Billy Bob who shot Cecil while they were bird hunting, etc. It says nothing about the safety of carrying a pistol with a chambered round in a quality holster.

    The argument for safety is simple. If you need to shoot defensively, the quicker you can shoot the better - the more likely you are to survive the encounter. Racking the slide takes extra time you may or may not have depending on the situation.

    The biggest error in your thinking is you believe carrying with a round in the chamber should be reserved for high speed CQB ninjas. Not true. What grandad taught you about gun safety when you were 7 is fine for general firearm use but it isn't appropriate for people who carry for self defense purposes. You have to move a little beyond that rudimentary thinking.

    "I'm not fast but I'm safe" isn't always good enough for self defense. Hell, sometimes safe AND fast isn't good enough. Safety always comes first but sometimes you can't dick around either.
  8. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2012 1:17pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post
    Simply calling someone an idiot is not an argument. It is the definition of a crude ad hominem attack.
    Only in a colloquial sense.
    In reality it's more of an insult and in your case simply a well reasoned statement; but it's not an argumentum ad hominem.
    That you don't know this leads me to believe you are an idiot.
    See, that's reasoning.


    The person who taught me stated that his primary consideration for the gun in the holster was to prevent an accidental discharge. He was a rifle platoon leader in the USMC and served in combat. When the pistol is in hand and you can control the weapon, then you chamber a round. So yeah, that seems like a valid reason to keep the chamber empty when you carry a pistol. When you have a pistol holstered do you keep a round chambered? Doesnt that seem a little dangerous to you?
    I don't carry normally, but if i did, then yes, and no.

    You sound like someone who may not be safe with a pistol.
    Considering you're an idiot, that doesn't really concern me.
    The actual certified instructors that charged me money to teach me, felt otherwise.
    You're just another random internet idiot.
    I don't give a **** what you think.
  9. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2012 3:35pm

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    [QUOTE=qbe9584;2656290]
    Quote Originally Posted by devil View Post
    Okay, I'm convinced. You are in fact a fucking idiot. You do realize virtually every cop in America carries their pistol with a round in the chamber, right? And they miraculously manage to not shoot themselves. With a proper holster and the proper training, it's a non-issue.

    You're also way off base with your "evidence" from the Marine Corps officer. Keep in mind, he can afford to carry condition 3 because he's got an M-16 in his hands...which has a round in the chamber. The pistol is just a backup.[/QUOT


    No, he was in Vietnam and he did work clearing out earthworks. That required a pistol and a flashlight. He was okay with a rifle, but had a platoon to handle most of that. The key here is that he had pistols in an age before reliable passive safeties. To cede the point to the other side, if you have a firing pin block like in glock or a sig sauer, then you can get away with it.

    But nobody here has presented an argument for safety. Except of course that accidental discharges NEVER happen, which puts you into neckbeard territory right there. My condolences when you accidentally shoot someone in the future.

    Accidental Discharge is the number three cause of firearm deaths after suicide and homicide according to the CDC.
    http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/f/fire...jury/stats.htm

    Also, I'm not a law enforcement officer. I am a hobbyist. Most everyone here is. So I will quote the pro's here:

    "Most training ranges will eventually see the “late, great leg shot,” as one instructor described it. This type of ND is usually caused by trying to holster a weapon with your finger still on the trigger. Depending on holster design and placement, this error generally causes a grazing wound down the side of the leg, or sometimes a through and through hole in the strong side buttock. Often, the only permanent damage suffered by one of these officers is hearing the; “jumped up and bit me in the butt-tocks” comments from their co-workers -- usually in the Forrest Gump voice. Clearly, this is a violation of safety rule #3 and the solution is to constantly emphasize the need for a straight finger, except when on target."

    So their solution is a loaded barrel with a light finger. My hands clench when I reach for a gun. I have to extend my trigger finger to operate the pistol safely. So, I cowboy carry, or take the extra step and chamber a round before I fire. I am not fast, but I am safe. I was taught this by an old fella who did ok with a pistol when I was near Quantico. He explained the safety reasons to me and they seem sound.

    Nobody has addressed this except to say that it never happens with the trained police of the US, except the police say it does, even in low pressure situations like a shooting range. And there is no way I am getting anywhere near the range time a cop can get while I am in Korea. Keeping the chamber empty is a valid way to combat accidental discharge. Accidental discharge happens. I'm not saying keep the gun unloaded in the holster, but let's not pretend we're all Buffalo Bill King of The Singing Cowboys and shoot ourselves or someone else by accident.
    Why don't you just put an empty gun in your holster and one bullet in your pocket? Think about how safe that would be. Most of the people who are "uncomfortable" with a round in the chamber are untrained, undertrained or do not truely understand how the weapon they are holding actually works. If you are going to carry a weapon it is your responsibility to seek out top shelf training from knowledgeable individuals, learn the operation of the weapon inside and out and train until you are competant and confident in its operation. Relying on information from a marginally informed source and hoping that half measures will take the place of training and education is a surer recipe for an accidental discharge than a round in the chamber.
  10. qbe9584 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2012 4:42pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not really. A double action revolver will have a heavy enough trigger pull to discourage discharge from an improper pull. The first squeeze will be long, but it will cycle you to a live chamber. But if you drop the gun, there is no bullet under the hammer to go off. If you carry a loaded weapon in a vehicle, an empty chamber is must.

    If you are highly/regularly trained, then carrying a bullet in the chamber may be safe for you. For me, a bullet in the chamber of a weapon that is not in my hand makes me sweat, period. It is not that I can't control my weapon, it's that I can only control my weapon when it is in my hand. The holster or the vehicle carrying case are grey areas. When the gun is in my hand you will probably not get it out of my hand, I will probably not drop it, and the gun, should it go off, will be pointed in a direction that I want it to go off in. That's not necessarily true otherwise.

    In general, most people are not professionally trained, and there is a significant danger to the shooter from their own improperly executed quick draw, reholstering a weapon when the the hammer is back and the trigger is set for a light single action pull, whatever. In those cases, it is better to be honest about your skill level and train for what you can realistically execute. The question was whether or not an empty chamber is valid. From a safety perspective, sometimes an empty chamber is valid.

    What idiot wants everybody in the country walking around with live ammo under the hammer all the time?
    Last edited by qbe9584; 1/25/2012 4:43pm at . Reason: typo
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