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View Poll Results: Is carrying a sidearm without a round in the chamber acceptable, or not?

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  • Acceptable

    16 51.61%
  • Not acceptable

    15 48.39%
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  1. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2011 12:49pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by christmas cash View Post
    I just don't agree with the video's notion of success. Being able to return fire while taking a knife to the lower back & armpit (kidney? lung? heart?) does not constitute a viable trade-off to me.

    Am I off-base to think that at such a close range the #1 priority should be controlling their knife first, then bringing your own weapon into play once you have the opportunity?

    If I wanted to show the value of having a round chambered, I think it would be more helpful to show it in a situation where drawing, moving and firing would be the appropriate first response (longer range) or how it would help after the immediate threat of the weapon has been dealt with as in your second video.
    I agree and hopefully I, as a trained and hopefully closer match physically to an attacker, would try to gain some sort of position before drawing and firing. But in her case I doubt she would have been able to do anything about the physical disparity in that scenario. Her best bet would likely have been a trade off with hope of surviving the attack by shooting the attacker.

    I think she may have been better served with an attempt to place a "fence" between herself and the threat, stiff arm or elbow etc while drawing. I doubt that any attempt to disarm would have been effective.

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  2. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2012 4:45pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well first of all I teach Israeli Combat Shooting which includes teaching how to draw the firearm, chambering a round into the gun and fire which by the way only takes a second to do. I think this method of carry is not for everyone especially cops, however for a civilian who has no tactical training and no gun retention training I think this is the best method of carry for them.


    The condition 3 carry method was is in use for mainly two reasons. The first reason was to prevent accidental discharges/shootings and the second was in case the gun is taken away the gun owner has a fighting chance to get it back without getting shot.


    Cops can’t carry this way because of the duties performed while on the job which places them at a greater risk of getting into deadly encounters. A civilian’s chances of getting into a deadly encounter are far less especially if they are aware of their surroundings and stay away from areas that are dangerous.

    One of the main arguments about condition 3 carry is that a person will not have a chance to load the weapon if they are attacked. I personally think that if someone is really close to you and they are attacking you whether you have a loaded or unloaded gun you are in trouble regardless.

    For instance if you are attacked by a person armed with a knife you should not try to draw your weapon until you have dealt with the threat first using both of your empty hands. Once you have deflected the knife and trapped their arm holding the knife you then you can draw your weapon and fire. I call this method RTS (Redirect, Trap and Shoot).


    Last edited by Team Python; 1/03/2012 5:04pm at .
  3. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2012 5:54pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    One of the main arguments about condition 3 carry is that a person will not have a chance to load the weapon if they are attacked. I personally think that if someone is really close to you and they are attacking you whether you have a loaded or unloaded gun you are in trouble regardless.

    For instance if you are attacked by a person armed with a knife you should not try to draw your weapon until you have dealt with the threat first using both of your empty hands. Once you have deflected the knife and trapped their arm holding the knife you then you can draw your weapon and fire. I call this method RTS (Redirect, Trap and Shoot).
    Isn't that a scenario where having a round chambered would be very advantageous? Trying to get a round into the chamber while trapping someone's arm and presumably still in a physical altercation could be pretty difficult.
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  4. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2012 6:14pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by christmas cash View Post
    Isn't that a scenario where having a round chambered would be very advantageous? Trying to get a round into the chamber while trapping someone's arm and presumably still in a physical altercation could be pretty difficult.
    That scenario is for condition 1 carry. If in condition 3 I would trap then take suspect down to the ground then move back to allow me to chamber a round. I personally don't carry condition 3 but I do train certain people to do so.
    Last edited by Team Python; 1/03/2012 6:18pm at .
  5. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2012 8:15pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    That scenario is for condition 1 carry. If in condition 3 I would trap then take suspect down to the ground then move back to allow me to chamber a round. I personally don't carry condition 3 but I do train certain people to do so.
    And if you cant disengage...your fucked. If all you have is a few seconds of a trapped knife hand before you know he is going to be able to break free and stab you (most likely AGAIN), you are fucked. If you are on the back of a bad guy who is shooting at you..like that video of the cop...you are fucked.

    I also am sketchy on the idea that cops should carry condition 1 but civilians shoud be in 3...**** happens and when you need to shoot the fewer steps required the better.

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  6. chemsoldier is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2012 9:36pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post

    Cops can’t carry this way because of the duties performed while on the job which places them at a greater risk of getting into deadly encounters. A civilian’s chances of getting into a deadly encounter are far less especially if they are aware of their surroundings and stay away from areas that are dangerous.
    Logically unsound statement. How often people get into deadly encounters is irrelevant to weapons condition since everyone in a deadly encounter needs to respond just as much. A LEO with a crazed asshole charging him with a chain does not need to be in condition 1 anymore than a female septuagenarian being charged by an asshole with a chain. She would probably be better off dealing with it empty handed till she could create some distance *sarcasm*
  7. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2012 10:50pm


     Style: slackerjitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    ........ but I do train certain people to do so.
    Certain people meaning civilians or certain people by profession?
  8. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 12:25am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    And if you cant disengage...your fucked. If all you have is a few seconds of a trapped knife hand before you know he is going to be able to break free and stab you (most likely AGAIN), you are fucked. If you are on the back of a bad guy who is shooting at you..like that video of the cop...you are fucked.

    I also am sketchy on the idea that cops should carry condition 1 but civilians shoud be in 3...**** happens and when you need to shoot the fewer steps required the better.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
    So people that don't carry a gun should just give up and not bother training to deal with armed suspects because they are fucked without a gun.
  9. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 12:28am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by chemsoldier View Post
    Logically unsound statement. How often people get into deadly encounters is irrelevant to weapons condition since everyone in a deadly encounter needs to respond just as much. A LEO with a crazed asshole charging him with a chain does not need to be in condition 1 anymore than a female septuagenarian being charged by an asshole with a chain. She would probably be better off dealing with it empty handed till she could create some distance *sarcasm*

    Hmmm. I have not seen too many people charged with a chain....(sarcasm)
    Last edited by Team Python; 1/04/2012 1:00am at .
  10. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 12:31am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Both but for law enforcement we don't cover condition 3 carry. We cover the combat shooting aspect of the course.
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