Not Another "Israeli Carry" thread!

**Robstafarian** · Posted On: 1/30/2012 1:40am

Originally Posted by chemsoldier

Misstatement? You mean "impossible to put your finger on the trigger while the weapon is holstered?

I think most anyone can keep their finger on the trigger while returning the weapon to its holster...much to their chagrin.

That wasn't a misstatement; I actually meant what I wrote. I thought Qbe was talking about the scenario I described, and I know my holster makes it (virtually) impossible to holster my pistol whilst my finger is on the trigger.

**Devil** · Posted On: 1/30/2012 9:14am

Originally Posted by Robstafarian

The Box O'Truth: The Original Chapters

Although not scientific by any means, the above link should provide a good theoretical foundation for discussing wall penetration. Put simply, any bullet which is likely to have sufficient terminal effect on a human target is likely to go through more than one interior wall (particularly in apartments). Using .38 Special instead of .357 Magnum made sense, but I hope you don't think that choice eliminated the problem altogether.

I heard an interesting story a couple years ago related to the wall penetration issue. This story is unconfirmed by me. It came through a friend of a friend. I have no reason not to believe it and I'll relay it as it was told to me.

The police department this guy worked for decided to require their SWAT team to use frangible ammo in their M4s to reduce overpenetration. Not sure why that weapon was chosen for their particular use, but whatever.

So they kick in the door on a drug raid and encounter an armed subject. Apparently he puts a round of 5.56 right in the guy's forehead and it basically scalped him as it shattered and glanced off his skull. It dropped him obviously and he was a bloody mess and didn't want to fight anymore, but he lived.

Just one instance, but food for thought for anyone who thinks about going with the frangible ammo option for home defense. I'll stick to conventional ammo myself.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 1/30/2012 10:46am

Talk about guns:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=114734

**qbe9584** · Posted On: 1/30/2012 11:16am

For home defense would you recommend a shotgun using birdshot instead of a pistol for the concern of wall penetration?

**Devil** · Posted On: 1/30/2012 11:22am

Originally Posted by qbe9584

For home defense would you recommend a shotgun using birdshot instead of a pistol for the concern of wall penetration?

No, because I want people to die if I shoot them.

Know your target and what's beyond.

**tgace** · Posted On: 1/30/2012 11:48am

Condition 3 carry only makes sense for untrained people and/or shitty weapons...or crap/or no holsters.

I'm thinking this guy probably should be carrying con 3....or even better, not at all.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

**Robstafarian** · Posted On: 1/31/2012 1:36am

Originally Posted by qbe9584

For home defense would you recommend a shotgun using birdshot instead of a pistol for the concern of wall penetration?

I don't know who you were addressing with that question, but the minimum load I would recommend is #4 buckshot. That you brought up birdshot for defensive use further emphasizes my earlier point:

Originally Posted by Robstafarian

You were taught to emphasize a false concept of safety to the point of overshadowing legitimate technique and a thorough understanding of mechanics, of both the shooter and the weapon.

You should note what the site I linked has to say about birdshot for defensive use:

Originally Posted by The Shotgun Meets the Box O'Truth

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

**qbe9584** · Posted On: 1/31/2012 6:06am

Good info again. I've been out and unable to read a bunch on the computer. My apologies. Thanks!

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 1/31/2012 9:36am

I've got slugs in my shotgun.

This comes down to intent as well.

**dwkfym** · Posted On: 2/02/2012 8:46pm

#3 buck in 20ga in my shotgun when I used to have it. 124gr JHP in my 9mm.
There is absolutely no reason not to carry with a round in the chamber, unless like said before, shitty training, shitty holster, shitty gun.

Anything with a firing pin block and more than 4# of trigger pull, I feel fine carrying hot and cocked. My favorite mode of carry though, is a nice long DA pull first shot.