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View Poll Results: Is carrying a sidearm without a round in the chamber acceptable, or not?

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  • Acceptable

    16 51.61%
  • Not acceptable

    15 48.39%
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  1. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2012 9:08am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Qbe - you can improve your proficiency even without gobs of range time. Read up on holsters. Pick one. Practice your draw at home over and over again until you're completely confident you can do it the same way, and the right way every time.

    This might sound retarded but you'll start learning **** like, oops I keep snagging my pistol on my shirt. If you buy an active retention holster maybe you'll realize when you try to draw quickly you miss the release on the holster every 20th time or so.

    Stuff like that is way more valuable for self defense than being able to put 10 rounds in the bullseye during slow fire at 25 yards.
  2. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2012 12:31pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post
    If I'm pulling a baton or a knife, I don't sweat those as much because of range and strength. The energy required to pull either free is not likely to enough energy to hurt myself even if something goes wrong. But, a gun is full strength impact with the misapplication of few pounds of pressure on one finger.
    There was a thread I can't seem to find, that showed what can happen when there's an accident in iaido. Very gruesome. The take away message is that edged weapons should be drawn carefully as well. I've seen an overenthusiastic draw of a Ka Bar that left a good rake mark up the torso (a little bit of inward pressure keeps the sheath in alignment so it doesn't snag).

    If I can't do it correctly every time, I'm human and need to be realistic about what I can and can't execute safely. Empty chamber carry may not be valid for you if you have the training. But I don't have that training and I can be honest about it. Would you say that carrying with an empty chamber might be valid for someone who doesn't have access to primo training and daily range access for practice? Maybe? Possibly?
    Carrying an empty chamber seems valid for someone who's carrying an antique handgun and/or a crappy holster. Regarding the additional safety of the empty chamber: wouldn't it only be a safer draw if the upcoming chamber was the empty one, not the one under the hammer? If the discharge you're concerned about is an accident caused by the draw, well, it's gonna fire just fine as soon as the cylinder rotates. In a drawing accident, an empty chamber under the hammer is an additional safety about as much as taking out the 6th bullet.
  3. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2012 12:41pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You make a great point. Condition 3 carry makes as much sense as carrying a revolver with the next chamber empty...the same reasoning applies.

    No accidental discharges. All you will have to do is pull the trigger twice, what could go wrong with that?

    I'm really kind of surprised I haven't seen some gun store genius suggest it yet.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
  4. ninjagirlrachel is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2012 3:50pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I usually go with a J-frame and call it a day.

    I keep semi autos in my vehicle typically, and off-body carry. I know this is kind of a sidestep to the question, so I'll also give my preference between the two...

    If it ain't hot snot, it's cold boogers. One in the chamber fer me.
  5. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2012 4:06pm

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post

    Would you say that carrying with an empty chamber might be valid for someone who doesn't have access to primo training and daily range access for practice? Maybe? Possibly?
    This goes back to my previous post about intent. If you don't have the intent to use it, then you shouldn't have it. If you are in a situation where you think you are going to need it, you better have it ready to use.

    If I'm pulling a baton or a knife, I don't sweat those as much because of range and strength. The energy required to pull either free is not likely to enough energy to hurt myself even if something goes wrong.
    Where exactly are you pulling your baton out of? A bag? The trunk of your car? Or do you walk around with a baton looped in your belt? Still don't see how you are comparing pulling a gun to pulling a baton or stick.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

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  6. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2012 5:08pm


     Style: slackerjitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by qbe9584 View Post
    Quantico Virginia in the Scouts and at firing ranges mainly. I was trained mostly by military folks, and took marksmanship courses and enjoyed firing pistols.

    In Texas, I studied with a group of folks in Phillipine martial arts for two years whose instructor incorporated elements into defensive firearms practice at extreme close range. He was a tactical instructor for the DPS. I classify myself as a hobbyist at best.

    My defense requirements were for home use and I prepared for home invasion: valuables in the living room, lock on the bedroom door, bed off center from the door, phone in the bedroom, and coordination with roommates about who does what and when. Hobbyist and amateur all.

    Gauging my own skill with pulling from a holster in a hurry, I did not feel safe when I did, and would rather take an extra step to chamber a round than panic squeeze a bullet. I never carried a gun concealed or openly in public, so don't sweat that. But, in consideration to someone with my lack of skill, safety concerns and so on, if a gun was my only immediate means of defense, would you recommend that I have a round in the chamber at all times? ?

    Uh, your story is incorporating additional elements. Quantico? Your scouting experience would have given you a different background on pistol shooting. Just between us,.......
    are you trolling this forum?
  7. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2012 6:38pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    You make a great point. Condition 3 carry makes as much sense as carrying a revolver with the next chamber empty...the same reasoning applies.

    No accidental discharges. All you will have to do is pull the trigger twice, what could go wrong with that?
    Sssh, you're gonna give him the bright idea of taking out the round in the chamber AND the round after it. Cause 4 bullets should still be enough, right?
  8. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2012 11:57pm


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To Qbe, whose posts I won't bother to quote en masse:

    I use a firearm with an almost 99 year old design, the very same design your Marine Officer friend used as a tunnel rat. The active safety device which makes loaded-chamber carry safe, which your Marine Officer advocated ignoring, was added at the request of the United States Army. The previous design for the weapon was identical, apart from the manual safety. As others have previously said, the advice you were given is nonsense in this post-modern era. For such advice to be relevant, you'd have to use a firearm with a design even older than mine.

    A proper holster will make it impossible to holster the weapon with your finger on the trigger; for example, have a look at my holster. Notice how the thumb break not only aids retention, but also physically blocks the hammer from contacting the firing pin. I open the thumb break when I suspect I'll need to draw, draw with my index finger straight and my thumb on the safety, depress the safety with my thumb during presentation, and am ready to fire upon completing presentation. This requires regular practice, but the kind of practice which can be done at home—with an unloaded weapon. It does not require anywhere near the fine motor control, nor the practice (at a firing range), that “Israeli carry” requires.

    As to logical fallacies, see the last element of my signature...
    Last edited by Robstafarian; 1/28/2012 12:01am at .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    Merely insulting you is not an ad hominem fallacy: them calling you an idiot would be ad hominem if they said "You are an idiot, therefore your argument is invalid."

    What is instead happening is thus:
    1. Your argument is bullshit.
    2. You keep repeating, and expanding upon, your argument.
    3. Therefore, you are an idiot.

    That isn't an ad hominem fallacy; that's inductive reasoning.
  9. qbe9584 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2012 2:14am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "...If you buy an active retention holster maybe you'll realize when you try to draw quickly you miss the release on the holster every 20th time or so."

    Good stuff. I will look into better holsters; you are the first of two people to mention this, and that is not something I had considered.
    Last edited by qbe9584; 1/28/2012 2:29am at . Reason: expansion of a point
  10. qbe9584 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2012 2:28am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "The active safety device which makes loaded-chamber carry safe, which your Marine Officer advocated ignoring, was added at the request of the United States Army."

    It wasn't so much that he said to ignore it as he was a believer in gross motor movements in training for a stress reaction. The reasoning was this: if you are surprised, fine motor control goes out, therefore think about big motions. True or not, this makes sense for me.

    "For such advice to be relevant, you'd have to use a firearm with a design even older than mine."
    I'm not following you there.

    "A proper holster will make it impossible to holster the weapon with your finger on the trigger; for example, have a look at my holster."
    That is a nice one. When you draw or holster, do you keep your finger outside the holster?

    "As to logical fallacies, see the last element of my signature..."
    I accept correction when it's offered. I still don't trust a loaded gun with passive safeties. I guess if one gets dropped, I would be the only guy here to flinch. I admit my limitations and state the logic of my position as clearly as I can. A lot of folks didn't address what I was taught to emphasize. What can I say?
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