Not Another "Israeli Carry" thread!

**Wounded Ronin** · Posted On: 11/06/2011 6:38pm

I don't normally carry. When I do, a lot of times, I'm either on my way to a range anyway and am doing so for convienience (my handgun and magazines are already in a holster on my belt all ready to go, instead of in a case I have to get out of my trunk or unpack from a range bag), or when I go out into the desert, in which case I'll open carry.

However, lately I've been thinking about "Israeli carry". This is because recently, I was doing some boulder/rocky hill scrambling while wearing a sidearm, and I happened to fall a short distance. I judo'ed with it and was completely fine afterwards, and nothing bad happened. However, I thought, "had the hammer of my sidearm impacted with the ground when I fell, and had there been a round in the chamber, could there have been a chance of an accidental discharge?" (As it happened, I did not have a round in the chamber anyway, but I began to wonder about the question as a hypothetical.)

So, I started chatting with friends about "Israeli carry" and looking it up on the internet.

One of my friends, who is a local martial artist and tactical instructor, actually uses "Israeli carry" for sidearms. I guess that he's in a minority.

Today, I took my Ruger P97 DC and practiced drawing from a holster, racking the slide during presentation, and dry firing it. My grand finale was to weird everyone out during a local USPSA event by running the Ruger, putting it into my holster without a round in the chamber, and manually chambering a round before engaging targets. Naturally it was a bit slower than drawing and shooting "normally", but it didn't seem that onerous to me. When you're trying to hit a little steel plate, you normally are pointed in and aiming to at least some extent when you pull the trigger, so all you're doing is racking the slide as you move the handgun up and forward into your normal shooting position. It's a little more awkward because your left hand has to rack the slide, release, and then catch up with your right hand, but it doesn't seem like the end of the world or anything. Another thing is that with that Ruger, I don't really like the first double action trigger pull, so I felt it was a lot easier to shoot well and get into a good rhythm by racking the slide and thereby setting the hammer into the single action position than it is to have a mushy long double action pull for the first shot, and then have to adjust the position of your trigger finger for the much shorter pull of the single action mode.

Most discussions on the internet about "Israeli carry" boil down to the following tired points:

*If you're leery of relying on a manual or automatic safety, you must be a worthless n00b who isn't ready to carry anyway.

*Chambering a round as you present requires two free hands, but in a real situation, you would be using one hand to deflect a baseball bat or tire iron that is being swung at your head, or moving a loved one to safety, and therefore "Israeli carry" is totally inadequate.

I personally think that the second internet objection is a little bit silly. If someone is swinging a baseball bat or similar object at my head, he's already in hand to hand combat range. I'm not going to stand there and shield my head with one arm, or try and smack the bat with one arm while I try and fire from the hip using my other arm. If someone has engaged you in hand to hand combat, either commit to surviving the hand to hand combat, or commit to getting out of the way and disengaging so you can use a ranged weapon. In concrete terms, don't swat at a baseball bat with one arm and rely on the fact you can fire from the hip with one hand since there's already a round in your chamber. Either explosively close the distance and use both hands to control the weapon and execute a throw or takedown, or else evade laterally with explosive movement to get out of range and use both hands to ready you firearm while you do so. Besides, if you're trying to fire into a guy one-handed at very close range, who's to say he won't manage to grab your slide and disarm you anyway?

Also, what the hell. If the argument is that you're only going to have one hand with which to fight in a real situation and manually cycling an action is somehow out of the question, then by that logic anyone who experiences a stoppage in a combat situation should be similarly doomed.

So, I've come to this forum to try and ask peoples' opinions and clarify my thoughts. Is "Israeli carry" such a horrible thing to do to the point that it defeats the purpose of carrying a sidearm, as people seem to say on the internet? Or is it possible to train yourself to chamber a round as you present, and have "Israeli carry" be an okay way to carry if you believe the chances of your having to open fire in self defense are low?

**mierdadetoro** · Posted On: 11/06/2011 7:01pm

Hello,

this is my 2 cents on that.

If you are going to carry with no round in the chamber, you better train that way. If you aren't, you better train that way. I dont like having a round in the chamber, myself. You, with practice, can draw, pull the slide, and fire accurately almost as fast as you could in DA mode. I guess you would have to ask yourself if the extra accuracy with the first shot, and the added safety is worth being a bit slower. I guess you could do some bullshido testing with bullets and go shoot say, 50 times each way and see. Now you got me wanting to try that out...

**submessenger** · Posted On: 11/06/2011 10:09pm

Some days I do, some days I don't. Two factors, for me: 1) which gun - I have no problem ever keeping a round in the USP because it's got a safety. I'm a little more cautious with the Kel-Tec. 2) where I am: in office or home, I'm intimately familiar with the layout, and know that I have at least a few seconds warning with which to prepare - in these situations, I'm comfortable not keeping a round in, because I know my surroundings and my guns.

**tgace** · Posted On: 11/06/2011 10:24pm

21 foot rule with a loaded gun is a bitch.

21 foot rule with an unloaded gun....may as well carry a brick.

**omoplatypus** · Posted On: 11/06/2011 10:24pm

i voted "unaccpetable" because i misunderstood "israeli carry". i thought you meant carrying an unloaded sidearm, a la barny fief.

i instantly thought of some asshole in an open carry state walking around with a glock in a shoulder holster, not for defense, but because it looked "tacticool".

however, upon reading the thread, i would say that if you carry without a chambered round, then it's fine as long as you do your range drills that way.

**tgace** · Posted On: 11/06/2011 10:51pm

Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin

I personally think that the second internet objection is a little bit silly. If someone is swinging a baseball bat or similar object at my head, he's already in hand to hand combat range. I'm not going to stand there and shield my head with one arm, or try and smack the bat with one arm while I try and fire from the hip using my other arm. If someone has engaged you in hand to hand combat, either commit to surviving the hand to hand combat, or commit to getting out of the way and disengaging so you can use a ranged weapon.

Tell that to this Cop.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...rttMau9vT62pTQ

Officer Cress shot and killed alleged DUI suspect Errol Baker on Sunday. For over one minute, Cress battled with Baker after pulling a gun on the officer. The trooper punched Baker several times, once causing him to drop the 45-caliber handgun. Baker retrieved the gun and fired, narrowly missing Cress. The trooper then grabbed his own gun, firing a fatal shot into Baker's head.

Right around 1:40 after wrestling with the BG for what probably seemed like eternity, the suspect pulls a gun and fires over his shoulder at the cop. The officer draws one handed and shoots the BG in the head. Sure he could have raked the slide against his belt or something, but that's a murphy laden disaster waiting to happen.

When you are H2H and the bad guy pulls a knife/gun/bat etc. There are PLENTY of situations where you may be forced to draw and fire one handed.

Check what Gabe Suarez is doing around 3:55 here.

I see that "what will you do if he's attacking you with a bat" style of question as being very legitimate. Since most gun fights start out at bad breath range you may very well be faced with those types of examples far more often than you would like. Adding having to chamber a round to make your weapon usable is just adding more problems to the situation vs solving any.

Sure, you MAY be forced to resolve the H2H issue without your firearm, but when carrying condition 3 you have just put yourself into a situation where thats going to be the fact. You have effectively taken the gun out of the equation for all intents and purposes.

Comparing one handed stoppage clearing in a SHTF situation to forcing yourself into a situation where you will have no choice but to chamber one handed is apples and oranges. You train one handed manipulations as a "God forbid I ever have to do this in real life" type of thing, not as normal operating procedure.

I just don't see the risk of misfires in a modern auto-pistol being significant enough to warrant carrying unchambered. It's more a matter of the carrier not feeling comfortable or well enough trained than it is anything else IMO.

**IMightBeWrong** · Posted On: 11/07/2011 2:08pm

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 11/07/2011 4:14pm

I always was told that an empty gun is an expensive hammer. That being said, I don't normally walk around with a gun in public. If I do, it is loaded. If I don't want to have a loaded gun in public, then I don't take it with me.

I do understand the reason behind havin it unloaded, but I just think that it defeats the purpose.

**submessenger** · Posted On: 11/07/2011 6:36pm

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

I always was told that an empty gun is an expensive hammer. That being said, I don't normally walk around with a gun in public. If I do, it is loaded. If I don't want to have a loaded gun in public, then I don't take it with me.

I do understand the reason behind havin it unloaded, but I just think that it defeats the purpose.

Just for clarity's sake, are you saying that you won't carry condition 3, or that you won't carry condition 4?

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 11/08/2011 8:55am

Oh, sorry about that. I see where I was confusing. I will not carry condition 3. When I went through the academy they drilled this into us to no end. When you are firing on the line and end up shooting all of your rounds, if you don't reload and chamber immediately, all hell breaks loose! They drilled into us that if you are standing there without a round chambered, you are dead.

I was also on the munitions team and fired thousands of rounds. We combat load and then try to keep from ever having a condition 3 weapon. My brother and a couple uncles are all cops, and I know that everytime I check out one of their weapons, the first thing you do is take the round out of the chamber and then the clip out.

I'm not saying that this is totally correct, but it is the only way I know.