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  1. ThatFighterGuy is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2011 10:56pm


     Style: Mixed Martial Artist

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Aikido: My Thoughts and Experiences

    I had an angry rant after arguing with a friend of mine about Aikido,

    Alright, I'm sick of this argument. Im not going through this again, so for the last time, AIKIDO IS BS. Most of its techniques are overly complicated, they rely too much on predictability, and the virtual lack of any sort of grappling defense of ground work makes it very one dimensional. Any and all techniques from Aikido that are effective, take a long time to perfect. Against trained opponents, and even sometimes even fully-resisting untrained ones, its practically useless. The only benefit you get from Aikido is focus. And even then, its very easy to break someones focus when you're punching them in the face.

    So I thought I would actually put my thoughts and experiences on here so I didnt just sound like an angry pointless ranter.

    I dont actually train in Aikido. But, I did do it for a little while because a friend of mine and his father do. Both are Brown belts and they train under Sensei Robert Macewen Jr (Nihon Goshin Aikido). Nihon Goshin is less philosophy and more street defense oriented. (I also believe it comes from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu) Now I respect anyone who practices martial arts, I've been doing them for 14 years myself. I've got to say, that if you practice the style for a long time, you can probably get some effective training out of it, but otherwise its nearly useless if you're looking for a well rounded style for self defense against trained or untrained opponents. I know a few other practitioners who also do Aikido, different styles of it, but really the same was prevalent. But, to try to bring this back to the point I was going to make, during the training, the attacks and situations we were defending against were too lazy and unrealistic (and this I thought may have just been the Sensei's style of training, but hey all had this issue), and the defensive techniques were overly complicated and cause a lot of fumbling when real resistance was given. I started doing techniques that I knew from various martial arts that were shorter, simpler and gave as good if not better results than what they were doing. Frankly it made me look a lot better than the other students in the class, and I was a white belt. We started doing the defense lines, which were in my opinion very unrealistic and an absurd way to practice technique if you are a serious marital artist. Not to say "Oh I take this seriously and everyone should" but for those who do, and there are some in those classes I was in who really took it seriously, that was just a very lazy and too easy way of practicing technique. Another problem was the quality of attack being defended. The only thing defended was strikes, an overhand chop, the single worst "roundhouse" (hook) punch I've ever seen, and what appeared to be a bad straight karate punch towards the chest. They were thrown with no proper technique or fines. Now I'm not looking for golden glove boxers here, but some proper technique would be nice. And the only other types of strikes were poorly thrown front kicks. Ill take a second to actually explain my martial arts background, I'm a Mixed Martial Artist. Yes I am an MMA fighter, but that is not a style or way of training. An MMA fighter is simply someone who competes in an MMA fight. I'm a Mixed Martial Artist before everything else. I've trained in Boxing, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Thai Boxing, Judo Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Wrestling, SAMBO, and some Self Defense styles like Krav Maga and also MCMAP. My whole point in looking as so many stiles and their moves, was to become well rounded. That was my goal, to become as well rounded as possible. Basically, Im pretty good at just about anything I'd need in a situation (Grappling competition, Kickboxing, MMA, street situation etc.) My point is, Im not amazing at any particular style or martial art, but I have perfected the basics and am pretty good at what I do. I don't have to be excellent at anything, just efficient at everything. that being my way of thinking in training, defending against improper strikes is just not good. Now I understand that an untrained attacker wont throw clean straight strikes, but nobody throws the exact same punches as the next, and you cant try to emulate that without real punching And also you cant just expect that the person you get into an altercation with is an untrained opponent. Martial arts is extremely popular now, helped by the rise and growth of the UFC and MMA. It's very common these days to find someone with martial arts or fight experience. So if you only focus a whole style on defending the untrained opponent, you're taking a seriously important part of self defense away. Another aspect that I saw completely lacked was the defense and expanding upon grappling techniques. There was no clinch work, no takedowns and or takedown defense, no real ground positions or ground submissions, not many real judo like throws from the clinch, or really that many seriously effective sweeps. Now, I've looked up more than just what I've done, I've read a few books, watched a few DVD's and seminar videos, so it's not like I only saw what I did when I was trying Aikido out. And even watching high level practitioners of different Aikido styles, I saw nothing that really fit any of those. There were a few throws and sweeps that weren't bad and looked pretty good, but seeing people who weren't Black Belt lever of higher it seemed that they were just really complicated unless done in the attack lines slow or done for demonstration against an nonresistant opponent. I realize it sounds like im bashing Aikido. And in a way I am. But It's just because of the argument I had over the style. When it comes to a serious well rounded effective style useful in situations with trained and untrained opponents this seems to fail and fail hard. My friend that I mentioned is a Brown Belt in NGA was also a varsity wrestler in High School and had some Boxing training. He fought another friend of mine who was a Brown Belt in Tae Kwon Do, but had stopped for over a year at the time, and who trained under me in submission wrestling. The Aikidoka attempted to box Jerren, very badly, and when Jerren threw punches back, he wasn't able to deflect or grab the attack. So he began to literally run away. Now remember this was just some hard sparring, but it was treated as a fight. 100% aggressiveness. Full fight energy. Real competition. The Aikidoka (his name is Anthony), then tried a wrestling style side headlock takedown, and was reversed, over rolled and had his back taken. And from there he was submitted via rear naked choke. Quite a few times during this match he attempted to set up his Aikido and it failed him miserably. Had Jerren wanted to he could have inflicted a serious amount more damage to him than he did. If you're a Brown Belt in a self defense martial arts, size should not matter (Anthony is about 6ft and 145pounds, Jerren about 5'9'' and 200 or so), strength really should not matter, and the last thing you want to stop your whole offense, should be resistance. I've sparred with him as well all through his training in Aikido. Me and Jerren are the same size, although Im in better condition and Im also stronger. and the results were always the same, with me winning. I've sparred with a Black Belt in the style, and I took him down fairly easily and caught him in a Key Lock and a Neck Crank at the same time Just when it comes right down to it, with my experiences and what I've read and watched, Aikido isn't made for trained opponents, and something as simple as full resistance can cause it serious problems. Also it's apparent serious lack of well rounded defense seriously hinders its potential as a self defense style. If there's one thing Aikido, I have noticed, does do very well is improve the ability of the users focus. The students and instructors were very focused and calm. That is until any one of them got hit. But never the less, the did have a lot of focus. It reminded me a lot of meditation. Just a calming attitude in the air. Now I'm sure if you were like Robert MacEwen and have been doing martial arts for 45 or so years, than you will get Aikido (along with whatever else you know) to a point where its probably atleast a little effective. But that's 1% of the people I've seen that practice it. These are just my experiences and opinions. Im sure I haven't seen all of Aikido, and I admit that there are some techniques that actually are effective and work, and a fair amount that can be modified to be very effective. Aikido I think if the right amount of time and effort were put into it, could be modified as a style to be much more well rounded and effective. But as it stand, I've seen nothing that impressed me, and nothing I would really take the time to learn, if I could be spending it on learning something that has a proven effectiveness.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2011 11:00pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Welcome to bullshido.

    tl;dr.

    I read the beginning of your rant and it has been repeatedly addressed since I joined in 2005. I am out. Enjoy yourself because eventually, this will most likely end up in YMAS.
  3. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2011 11:01pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WALL OF TEXT


    MY EYES JUST EXPLODED

    Welcome to the site, might I suggest you edit your post and add paragraphs.

    Otherwise:

    1.No one will bother fucking reading it
    2.People will assume you're trolling
    3.It will get shitcanned
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  4. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2011 11:26pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having taken the time to read to this part...

    So I thought I would actually put my thoughts and experiences on here so I didnt just sound like an angry pointless ranter.
    ... I'd like to inform you THAT'S EXACTLY how you've come across.

    Nothing you've stated is new.

    This site has some incredibly experienced fighters in addition to people who have spent a considerable amount of their time studying tradtional Japanese systems, such as Aikido. There's very few of those TMAers here who are deluded in their study to beleive Aikido alone is effective enough.

    Perhaps you should use the search funtion or read The Idiot's Guide To Discussing Aikido On This Forum before attempting an "Aikido'nt" post again.
    Last edited by Rock Ape; 11/04/2011 11:30pm at .
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  5. JingMerchant! is offline
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    ...has all your Jing.

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2011 11:59pm


     Style: Judo, baby! Yeah!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatFighterGuy View Post
    I had an angry rant after arguing with a friend of mine about Aikido,

    Alright, I'm sick of this argument. Im not going through this again, so for the last time, AIKIDO IS BS. Most of its techniques are overly complicated, they rely too much on predictability, and the virtual lack of any sort of grappling defense of ground work makes it very one dimensional. Any and all techniques from Aikido that are effective, take a long time to perfect. Against trained opponents, and even sometimes even fully-resisting untrained ones, its practically useless. The only benefit you get from Aikido is focus. And even then, its very easy to break someones focus when you're punching them in the face.

    So I thought I would actually put my thoughts and experiences on here so I didnt just sound like an angry pointless ranter.

    I dont actually train in Aikido. But, I did do it for a little while because a friend of mine and his father do. Both are Brown belts and they train under Sensei Robert Macewen Jr (Nihon Goshin Aikido). Nihon Goshin is less philosophy and more street defense oriented. (I also believe it comes from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu) Now I respect anyone who practices martial arts, I've been doing them for 14 years myself.

    I've got to say, that if you practice the style for a long time, you can probably get some effective training out of it, but otherwise its nearly useless if you're looking for a well rounded style for self defense against trained or untrained opponents.

    I know a few other practitioners who also do Aikido, different styles of it, but really the same was prevalent. But, to try to bring this back to the point I was going to make, during the training, the attacks and situations we were defending against were too lazy and unrealistic (and this I thought may have just been the Sensei's style of training, but hey all had this issue), and the defensive techniques were overly complicated and cause a lot of fumbling when real resistance was given.

    I started doing techniques that I knew from various martial arts that were shorter, simpler and gave as good if not better results than what they were doing. Frankly it made me look a lot better than the other students in the class, and I was a white belt. We started doing the defense lines, which were in my opinion very unrealistic and an absurd way to practice technique if you are a serious marital artist.

    Not to say "Oh I take this seriously and everyone should" but for those who do, and there are some in those classes I was in who really took it seriously, that was just a very lazy and too easy way of practicing technique. Another problem was the quality of attack being defended. The only thing defended was strikes, an overhand chop, the single worst "roundhouse" (hook) punch I've ever seen, and what appeared to be a bad straight karate punch towards the chest. They were thrown with no proper technique or fines. Now I'm not looking for golden glove boxers here, but some proper technique would be nice. And the only other types of strikes were poorly thrown front kicks.

    Ill take a second to actually explain my martial arts background, I'm a Mixed Martial Artist. Yes I am an MMA fighter, but that is not a style or way of training. An MMA fighter is simply someone who competes in an MMA fight. I'm a Mixed Martial Artist before everything else. I've trained in Boxing, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Thai Boxing, Judo Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Wrestling, SAMBO, and some Self Defense styles like Krav Maga and also MCMAP. My whole point in looking as so many stiles and their moves, was to become well rounded. That was my goal, to become as well rounded as possible.

    Basically, Im pretty good at just about anything I'd need in a situation (Grappling competition, Kickboxing, MMA, street situation etc.) My point is, Im not amazing at any particular style or martial art, but I have perfected the basics and am pretty good at what I do. I don't have to be excellent at anything, just efficient at everything. that being my way of thinking in training, defending against improper strikes is just not good.

    Now I understand that an untrained attacker wont throw clean straight strikes, but nobody throws the exact same punches as the next, and you cant try to emulate that without real punching And also you cant just expect that the person you get into an altercation with is an untrained opponent. Martial arts is extremely popular now, helped by the rise and growth of the UFC and MMA. It's very common these days to find someone with martial arts or fight experience. So if you only focus a whole style on defending the untrained opponent, you're taking a seriously important part of self defense away.

    Another aspect that I saw completely lacked was the defense and expanding upon grappling techniques. There was no clinch work, no takedowns and or takedown defense, no real ground positions or ground submissions, not many real judo like throws from the clinch, or really that many seriously effective sweeps. Now, I've looked up more than just what I've done, I've read a few books, watched a few DVD's and seminar videos, so it's not like I only saw what I did when I was trying Aikido out. And even watching high level practitioners of different Aikido styles, I saw nothing that really fit any of those.

    There were a few throws and sweeps that weren't bad and looked pretty good, but seeing people who weren't Black Belt lever of higher it seemed that they were just really complicated unless done in the attack lines slow or done for demonstration against an nonresistant opponent. I realize it sounds like im bashing Aikido and in a way I am. But It's just because of the argument I had over the style.

    When it comes to a serious well rounded effective style useful in situations with trained and untrained opponents this seems to fail and fail hard. My friend that I mentioned is a Brown Belt in NGA was also a varsity wrestler in High School and had some Boxing training. He fought another friend of mine who was a Brown Belt in Tae Kwon Do, but had stopped for over a year at the time, and who trained under me in submission wrestling.

    The Aikidoka attempted to box Jerren, very badly, and when Jerren threw punches back, he wasn't able to deflect or grab the attack. So he began to literally run away. Now remember this was just some hard sparring, but it was treated as a fight. 100% aggressiveness. Full fight energy. Real competition.

    The Aikidoka (his name is Anthony), then tried a wrestling style side headlock takedown, and was reversed, over rolled and had his back taken and from there he was submitted via rear naked choke. Quite a few times during this match he attempted to set up his Aikido and it failed him miserably.

    Had Jerren wanted to he could have inflicted a serious amount more damage to him than he did. If you're a Brown Belt in a self defense martial arts, size should not matter (Anthony is about 6ft and 145pounds, Jerren about 5'9'' and 200 or so), strength really should not matter, and the last thing you want to stop your whole offense, should be resistance.

    I've sparred with him as well all through his training in Aikido. Me and Jerren are the same size, although Im in better condition and Im also stronger and the results were always the same, with me winning. I've sparred with a Black Belt in the style, and I took him down fairly easily and caught him in a Key Lock and a Neck Crank at the same time.

    Just when it comes right down to it, with my experiences and what I've read and watched, Aikido isn't made for trained opponents, and something as simple as full resistance can cause it serious problems.

    Also it's apparent serious lack of well rounded defense seriously hinders its potential as a self defense style. If there's one thing Aikido, I have noticed, does do very well is improve the ability of the users focus. The students and instructors were very focused and calm. That is until any one of them got hit. But never the less, the did have a lot of focus.

    It reminded me a lot of meditation. Just a calming attitude in the air. Now I'm sure if you were like Robert MacEwen and have been doing martial arts for 45 or so years, than you will get Aikido (along with whatever else you know) to a point where its probably atleast a little effective. But that's 1% of the people I've seen that practice it. These are just my experiences and opinions. Im sure I haven't seen all of Aikido, and I admit that there are some techniques that actually are effective and work, and a fair amount that can be modified to be very effective.

    Aikido I think if the right amount of time and effort were put into it, could be modified as a style to be much more well rounded and effective. But as it stand, I've seen nothing that impressed me, and nothing I would really take the time to learn, if I could be spending it on learning something that has a proven effectiveness.
    I've put in a few paragraphs, but i can't be bothered to check if i've done it correctly. IT's late here...
    "So, yeah, Zen teachers may well insult you, work you to the bone, hit you with sticks, shout verbal abuse at you, and punch the **** out of you.
    And when the ****'s been punched out of you, you might just find that you're far better-off without it." - Vieux Normand

    "So in short, BJJ wins again. BJJ, and chainmail." - TheMightyMcClaw

    "On bullshido, your opinions are not sacred, neither are your feelings." - Scrapper

    "You entered the lions' den. Don't bitch if you get eaten." - danniboi07

    "Needless to say, it's much easier to clear a bunch of drunk kids out of your house when you're yelling GTFO and carrying a samurai sword." - DerAuslander

    "Eventually, I realized it doesn't matter what art you train, what matters is the method in which you train. Training in an alive manner, under skilled and qualified instruction, is the single most important aspect of gaining martial skill. All else is window dressing." - JNP : Saying it how it is!
  6. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/05/2011 12:26am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aikido I think if the right amount of time and effort were put into it, could be modified as a style to be much more well rounded and effective.
    Then it would no longer be "aikido" thus just another hybrid which people would debate about it's effectiveness till their eyes bled reading the forums.

    I've seen nothing that impressed me, and nothing I would really take the time to learn
    But you took the time to enlighten us with your "experiences"?
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  7. ThatFighterGuy is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2011 12:50am


     Style: Mixed Martial Artist

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    yeah that's a much better way to have layered it. I just kinda typed this out. I don't particularly care what it looks like, cause if people read it, they read it. If they don't, oh well. But that's much better looking. Thanks.
  8. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/05/2011 12:56am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for sharing your experience. I think a lot of people here will agree with what you've said. Overall what you've said is quite obvious to most here and doesn't really need to be repeated again but there's nothing wrong IMO with sharing your personal experience.
  9. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/05/2011 12:58am

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatFighterGuy View Post
    yeah that's a much better way to have layered it. I just kinda typed this out. I don't particularly care what it looks like, cause if people read it, they read it. If they don't, oh well. But that's much better looking. Thanks.
    You know.. At the risk of trolling this particular forum.. I fucking hate people who come to a discussion forum, post something than retort with... "I don't particularly care"

    Why did you bother posting in the first place if you really don't care ?
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  10. SmH is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2011 5:53am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wish I would have seen JingMerchant's layouted repost before pulling myself through this huge wall of text by my on hair!
    First of all, I'm not an Aikido-nutrider by any means (check out my introducing-myself-thread http://http://www.bullshido.net/foru...d.php?t=110656), I just think most people missunderstand Aikido terribly.
    In my opinion, Aikido just is not and was never meant to be a fighting art (regardless of what those self-proclaimed "Real Aikido" guys think they might be doing there) , but it's learning and understanding a certain philosophy and culture. You just use techniques instead of books to teach it, which makes it way more fun to learn.
    Unfortunately, there are too many instructors who kind of miss to point this out clearly, and therefore a whole lot of Aikidokas who do
    actually believe they could disarm and control an armed attacker with Kotegaeshi, a belief which is as absurd as dangerous (for them).
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