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  1. Sorekara is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2011 6:37pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Uchikomi questions.

    If we do uchikomi for Ogoshi in the static drill, we move power foot forward first. If we do dynamic (right hand moving) uchikomi we bring left foot back and spin around.

    Doing solo uchikomi I'm taught to do forward throws the same as static,,, move power foot, then the rest.

    Would it be better for me to walk backwards and bring left foot back, or would it be better to practice at a static?
  2. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2011 7:18pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not just for O goshi, but for any static throw.

    This is a common problem and it is a major stumbling block for adult beginners when learning Judo.

    Re Terminology here is a quite checklist so people can follow the following.
    Spoiler:

    The foot you call the 'power foot' I call the 'pivot foot'. It is the foot you take the first step with



    I backwards pivot is as such uke steps with the pivot foot to the top of the triangle that brings around the trailing foot.

    Shown here by Okano, click to enlarge.



    A forwards pivot is where you retreat with what would normally be your be your trailing foot.





    And then bring your pivot foot around to be level with it






    Now to address your question. I think its really unhelpful to introduce throws using static uchikomi to adult beginners, because its almost impossible for an adult beginner to pull forwards to perform the kuzushi action whilst turning backwards and not either lose the kuzushi action or bugger up the pivot.

    I get my adult beginners moving and doing the forwards pivot asap. I only use static uchikomi for more advanced beginners and for kuzushi drilling.

    O goshi in particular is very problematic when done static because you off balance/ tsurikomi then take your hand off the lapel and place it around the back as you reverse in. In the process uke comes back off their toes to being flat footed and you lose all your kuzushi.

    If I were an adult beginner I would try and do as little static throw uchikomi as possible I would do as much of it moving as I can.

    I would only really drill my kuzushi statically.

    I would also read these two articles to understand how to do those two things.

    Drilling kuzushi

    Moving uchikomi
  3. Sorekara is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2011 10:13am


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That answered my question. Thanks!
  4. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/11/2011 1:25pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll second that motion. I don't use any static uchikomi when teaching any sort of beginner.

    For any forward throw that tori leaves both feet on the ground, just have uke walk towards tori, ayumi ashi at first, and do the turn. You can practice the turn by yourself, then add uke.

    O Goshi is as pointed out a bit problematic, however, with uke walking towards tori, momentum is preserved and thus kuzushi can be continued by good use of turning and hikite.

    Also, just throw each other, screw the uchikomi, if your ukemi is decent that is.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. Coach Josh is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/11/2011 3:40pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have been teaching beginners now for about a year and can tell you that static uchikomi is worth the effort.

    The problem I find is that people do not translate the actions to a dynamic throw as well as they should and do not realize the basics of a proper throw.

    In static uchikomi we have uke stand square. This is to simulate the position that you will want them in before trying to execute a forward throw such as Ogoshi in randori. Now the way you get uke to that position is an entirely different lesson and for another discussion but remember that this is the beginning not the end.

    My main concern and the reason for teaching Ogoshi is so that tori will not have to worry about the action of the power hand and the details that are involved with other throws such as seois and tsurikomigoshi.

    I have them put emphasis on the initial step with the front foot going across the body and staying in front. While having them pulling the sleeve high and hard to get kuzushi.

    During the turn I make sure that they get the hand around the body and SQUAT and maintaining a straight back, pulling uke onto their backs and having uke fill the space. From here its a simple twist of the body focusing on putting your right ear on your left knee.

    During moving uchikomi when tori is moving backwards this is a different footwork pattern but the initial static drill better simulates the way you will do it in a combination with say kouchi. So instead of waiting for uke to push I rather get my guys into the idea of attacking than waiting.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  6. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/17/2011 11:22pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    I have been teaching beginners now for about a year and can tell you that static uchikomi is worth the effort.
    I think that if movement is introduced as soon as possible, static uchikomi have their place. But in that case, there is no need for static uchikomi, you can do moving uchikomi. Once ukemi is reasonable, you can do nage komi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    The problem I find is that people do not translate the actions to a dynamic throw as well as they should and do not realize the basics of a proper throw.
    My experience is that if you build on a progression of movement training solo then with a partner, then static uchikomi are not needed very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    In static uchikomi we have uke stand square. This is to simulate the position that you will want them in before trying to execute a forward throw such as Ogoshi in randori. Now the way you get uke to that position is an entirely different lesson and for another discussion but remember that this is the beginning not the end.
    The old T-up thing. I tell my students, this is where you will eventually end up. It skips other steps, but if you can't do the throw then all the other steps are pretty much worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    My main concern and the reason for teaching Ogoshi is so that tori will not have to worry about the action of the power hand and the details that are involved with other throws such as seois and tsurikomigoshi.
    That is the same reason I use O Goshi as well. I think the tai sabaki and posture issues are more important. In any case, you can use the tsurite action in O Goshi to good effect, but it will work without it for the purposes of simplification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    I have them put emphasis on the initial step with the front foot going across the body and staying in front. While having them pulling the sleeve high and hard to get kuzushi.

    During the turn I make sure that they get the hand around the body and SQUAT and maintaining a straight back, pulling uke onto their backs and having uke fill the space. From here its a simple twist of the body focusing on putting your right ear on your left knee.
    You mean left ear to left knee? I actually don't use that cue on O Goshi, but it will work. The whole action of lowering the body (squatting) as tori turns is critical. I find that a lot of people are not used to bending their knees, and for sure not used to doing it while supporting weight like we do in Judo. The whole positioning and balance thing I have a series of drills to work on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    During moving uchikomi when tori is moving backwards this is a different footwork pattern but the initial static drill better simulates the way you will do it in a combination with say kouchi. So instead of waiting for uke to push I rather get my guys into the idea of attacking than waiting.
    Yes, I've debated that same point with myself for many years. In the end, I concluded that as part of a progression of learning to throw and recognize the various throwing opportunities (for the basics of forward throws), the most basic opportunity is when uke moves directly towards tori and or pushes tori moving in ayumi ashi. So I went with that instead of static with a step to the front first. I find that many people automatically start stepping to the front first after a while. The end member tai sabaki of turning to the rear and stepping to the front tend to blend together over time anyway, but I do teach them separately, as the front step is useful for when uke moves backwards/sideways/or as you point out for combination with kouchi gari or other ashi waza.

    In the end, it's 6 of one/half dozen of another as long as a logical progression is used with as many intermediate steps as needed to learn the skill.

    The next issue is how to throw someone who is standing in migi or hidari shizentai, which is the more realistic situation. But someone who can throw "square" can learn that pretty easily.

    I also debated over just dumping learning to throw with uke square and start with offset stances, but I found that was usually overload, and that a solid ability to throw with uke square made learning offset throwing a lot easier. After all, it's the thowing action that is where we want to end up, all the rest is just maneuvering.

    We had a clinician from Vancouver who demonstrated a method of using the lines between tatami as guides for teaching how to throw offset from the beginning. Nice method and it works. Basically, uke lines up his lead foot on a line, and tori lines up his trailing foot on the same line. Move in tsugi ashi, uke does the front pivot/tai sabaki so his lead foot is in front of tori lead foot on the line, then a back pivot to the T-ed up position.
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  7. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 6:27am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    I have been teaching beginners now for about a year and can tell you that static uchikomi is worth the effort.
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    My experience is that if you build on a progression of movement training solo then with a partner, then static uchikomi are not needed very much.
    Indeed. I think its helpful to move away from the idea that static uchikomi necessarily means a full repetition.

    Static uchikomi can also be tandoku renshuu.

    If you build up pivoting skills and positioning skills via tandoku renshuu then things fit much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    The problem I find is that people do not translate the actions to a dynamic throw as well as they should and do not realize the basics of a proper throw.
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    That is the same reason I use O Goshi as well. I think the tai sabaki and posture issues are more important. In any case, you can use the tsurite action in O Goshi to good effect, but it will work without it for the purposes of simplification.
    Again its progressive drilling building the throw from the ground up using a combination of static solo drilling, moving solo drilling and moving partnered drilling.

    I agree that having the tsurite hand involved can cause problems, however, I dislike using O goshi to get around it, because it tends to pull people out of alignment and gives them spacing issues because they have to have contact around the back. If you have two bigger beginners working together its really hard for them to do O goshi.

    A thing I was recently reminded of and nicked is doing a moving drill with a forward pivot and having tori start with his hand laid on the shoulder and then turn in to end up wrapping the head.

    Eliminates the issues with the tsurite and those with gripping around the back.


    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    You mean left ear to left knee?
    Eh? pretty sure Josh is right with right ear to left knee. I use a 'doing up the seat belt' analogy instead though. As its familiar and people understand the torquing of the upper body required.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    We had a clinician from Vancouver who demonstrated a method of using the lines between tatami as guides for teaching how to throw offset from the beginning. Nice method and it works. Basically, uke lines up his lead foot on a line, and tori lines up his trailing foot on the same line. Move in tsugi ashi, uke does the front pivot/tai sabaki so his lead foot is in front of tori lead foot on the line, then a back pivot to the T-ed up position.
    I use lines on the mat all the time, they're so useful. Not a lot of people use them though, which is a waste of handy resource.
  8. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2011 7:37am


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Last night there was a beninner in aikido who wasn't getting the footwork for a simple 90 degree turn. I put him on T junction on the mats and had him use that.
    The lines are good for direction, and bar freakish proportions, pretty helpful for distance too.
    FMA places will sometimes have some type of star shape taped onto the ground to help train the angles.
    As a remedial step for some people who can't tell if they've turned 180, 90 or 270 degrees I'll use cues like "turn until your facing the door," I've other things that identify the other sides of the mat like a curtain and a crash mat. I avoid using right and left because it leads to confusion.
  9. Coach Josh is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2011 2:28pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know we are the same line of thought Ben when it comes to training methods. Utilizing every trick in the book to get people to understand something you feel is really what I'm driving at.

    I like the seat belt analogy. Yes right ear to left knee is what I was referring.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk please ignore typos.
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  10. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2011 10:45pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    I know we are the same line of thought Ben when it comes to training methods. Utilizing every trick in the book to get people to understand something you feel is really what I'm driving at.

    I like the seat belt analogy. Yes right ear to left knee is what I was referring.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk please ignore typos.
    Exactly, I'll use static uchikomi if that is what will work. As Judoka_UK notes, I too go build the basic movement skills progressively, ending up with the throw. That process takes different steps for different people.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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