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  1. dflanmod is offline
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 10:23am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    So what throws did you learn and did it vary much from gym to gym?
    The throws were pretty much the same from gym to gym. I could'nt tell you the names because they never taught us the names. If they taught us the names they might have to use judo terminology, (horrors no).
    But we would learn single and double leg take downs, several different variations of hip throws and some foot sweeps. But like I said, they never taught/told us the names of the throws. (Sucks).
  2. KO'd N DOA is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 11:28am


     Style: Judo Sandbagger

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    Having trained off and on in the JJ, BJJ, and Judo I might comment a bit based on my own experiences.

    The JJ styles I know are mostly compliant driven with having a judo type competition, usually because of cross pollination of the arts. When Judoka attend they usually win. Only a few BJJ have cross trained, but none of advanced white or blue belt, so they blend in.

    The judo focuses on standing, but with the turning in of the backs for the shoulder throws, the BJJ guys who cross-train are always jumping the back - getting called for it - and then profusely complaining about it. BJJ guys hate being told to stand straight, as it seems counterintuitive. The higher level Judoka throw them anyways.

    Groundfighting is similar, but JJ spends but a fraction of time on it. My judo club spends more 30% on it, and is fun because of all the BJJ guys who come to place an emphasis on their standup game. Almost everyone who comes to Judo now, has some BJJ experience, even if only a few classes. During training, open rolling is allowed and it 'degenerates' into a more BJJ type roll. Yet for more competition training, BJJers are always called for stalling. No leg locks, however but JJ and BJJ train and permit at higher levels.

    BJJ clubs that I trained at or with people from, have profs. who are Judo Brown belts, and have a decidedly differnt slant, and they say so. Most of the time it is groundwork.

    JJ has a more self defence orientation, even some weapons. Never seen a specific self defence in Judo, and a couple of times in BJJ we did some simple strategy sessions - due to requests from students.
  3. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 12:39pm

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The guard breaking mentioned earlier is interesting and something I had forgotten. Most of the JJ or Judo guys that I've rolled with have trouble breaking a high closed guard or they break it in ways that really open them selves up to counters. Like immediately standing up.
  4. cualltaigh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 3:12pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dflanmod View Post
    The throws were pretty much the same from gym to gym. I could'nt tell you the names because they never taught us the names. If they taught us the names they might have to use judo terminology, (horrors no).
    But we would learn single and double leg take downs, several different variations of hip throws and some foot sweeps. But like I said, they never taught/told us the names of the throws. (Sucks).
    I have the same problem as we don't use the Japanese names for the throws (well for any moves really), so I'm constantly trying to look them up to relate it back to discussion. A double leg is morote gari, a single has been variously described as a variation of morote gari or sukui Nage (though I'm not sure of this is correct). We also have a single variation we call ankle-groin-lever, which I've just discovered is a kibisu gaeshi.

    We also have 11 throws in our hip throws series, as does the kodokan having 11 in its koshi-waza, but I'm yet to match them all up ( i.e. What we would call a first hip throw they call an o goshi, which is the fifth in their list from what I can tell).
  5. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 4:17pm


     Style: judo, parenting

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    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    I have the same problem as we don't use the Japanese names for the throws (well for any moves really), so I'm constantly trying to look them up to relate it back to discussion. A double leg is morote gari, a single has been variously described as a variation of morote gari or sukui Nage (though I'm not sure of this is correct). We also have a single variation we call ankle-groin-lever, which I've just discovered is a kibisu gaeshi.

    We also have 11 throws in our hip throws series, as does the kodokan having 11 in its koshi-waza, but I'm yet to match them all up ( i.e. What we would call a first hip throw they call an o goshi, which is the fifth in their list from what I can tell).
    You are training in a Kawaishi based sytem,yes?
  6. cualltaigh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 4:29pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by KO'd N DOA View Post
    Having trained off and on in the JJ, BJJ, and Judo I might comment a bit based on my own experiences.

    The JJ styles I know are mostly compliant driven with having a judo type competition, usually because of cross pollination of the arts. When Judoka attend they usually win. Only a few BJJ have cross trained, but none of advanced white or blue belt, so they blend in.

    The judo focuses on standing, but with the turning in of the backs for the shoulder throws, the BJJ guys who cross-train are always jumping the back - getting called for it - and then profusely complaining about it. BJJ guys hate being told to stand straight, as it seems counterintuitive. The higher level Judoka throw them anyways.

    Groundfighting is similar, but JJ spends but a fraction of time on it. My judo club spends more 30% on it, and is fun because of all the BJJ guys who come to place an emphasis on their standup game. Almost everyone who comes to Judo now, has some BJJ experience, even if only a few classes. During training, open rolling is allowed and it 'degenerates' into a more BJJ type roll. Yet for more competition training, BJJers are always called for stalling. No leg locks, however but JJ and BJJ train and permit at higher levels.

    BJJ clubs that I trained at or with people from, have profs. who are Judo Brown belts, and have a decidedly differnt slant, and they say so. Most of the time it is groundwork.

    JJ has a more self defence orientation, even some weapons. Never seen a specific self defence in Judo, and a couple of times in BJJ we did some simple strategy sessions - due to requests from students.
    The back taking on shoulder throws is an interesting point, probably something I wouldn't have thought of. Do you note any major differences in the throws between JJJ and Judo?

    Also I wasn't aware there were no leg locks in judo, any others that spring to mind? There are a few escapes and subs we do that I'm not sure whether they'd be classified as shoulder or wrist locks (which I understand aren't allowed in bjj comp rules). Is there anything like that in Judo ne waza?
    Last edited by cualltaigh; 11/02/2011 4:33pm at . Reason: Me num e nump
  7. cualltaigh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 4:31pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdnronin View Post
    You are training in a Kawaishi based sytem,yes?
    Yes that's right
  8. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 4:37pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

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    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    There are a few escapes and subs we do that I'm not sure whether they'd be classified as shoulder or wrist locks (which I understand aren't allowed in bjj comp rules).
    No, wrist locks are perfectly legal in BJJ competition. I’m not quite sure about white belt, but certainly they’re allowed from blue and up under IBJJF rules. (I should know; I was last taught wrist locks in BJJ this Monday precisely because of an imminent tournament, and there are guys at the gym who wristlock me pretty regularly.)

    I think you’re unlikely to see many standing wrist locks (though there is that one…) simply because, IMO, they are very difficult to pull off as they afford you very little control of your opponent, but wrist locks (mano de vaca or “cow hand” in Portuguese?) certainly occur in the ground game, though some argue that they are underutilised.
    Last edited by Petter; 11/02/2011 4:38pm at . Reason: I meant IBJJF rules, not CBJJF (who use IBJJF rules, of course)
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
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  9. cualltaigh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 4:37pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    The guard breaking mentioned earlier is interesting and something I had forgotten. Most of the JJ or Judo guys that I've rolled with have trouble breaking a high closed guard or they break it in ways that really open them selves up to counters. Like immediately standing up.
    I've heard/been told the stand-up in closed guard numerous times in JJJ. What kind of escapes/passes do you use?
  10. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 4:42pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

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    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    I've heard/been told the stand-up in closed guard numerous times in JJJ. What kind of escapes/passes do you use?
    BJJ has about a billion guard passes, some of which involve standing up. Some of my coaches are in fact very fond of standing guard passes. However,
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Most of the JJ or Judo guys that I've rolled with have trouble breaking a high closed guard or they break it in ways that really open them selves up to counters. Like immediately standing up.
    Using a stand-up pass from a high close guard sounds dangerous to me because your posture will be more vulnerable than a lower guard, and standing up with your posture broken down exposes you to sweeps, armbars, triangles…

    I don’t think standing to pass is inherently a bad idea at all, but it’s got to be done right. BJJ guard passes tend to emphasise posture, posture, posture.

    Of course, WhiteShark will better know what he meant (and better know BJJ, for that matter).
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
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