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  1. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/01/2011 7:18pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The three Jitsu's - a n00b's impression

    By now I'm sure everyone is aware of the commonalities between the three Jitsu's (BJJ, JJ and Kano’s/Judo) due to their common roots. I have certainly been interested recently in the different interpretations of the same techniques between them. However, it wasn't until (as a JJ practitioner) I entered into a BJJ competition on the weekend that the differences in their respective applications really started to become apparent to me.

    Before I get into this I would like to preface by saying that I am certainly no expert in any of the above mentioned arts (having just over 2 years in JJ, a couple of years in Judo juniors nearly 2 decades ago and as of yesterday, 1 BJJ class). I would certainly appreciate and encourage those more knowledgeable in these arts to critique, correct and cultivate anything I post here. Also apologies in advance for the novel I’m about to write.

    The most obvious difference to me is in the stand up phase. In Jujitsu (well mine at least) we spend a lot of time sparring (kick, punch, elbows, knees etc.) looking for openings or creating them through movement and/or strikes. A grip is only ever taken once a distracting blow is landed or in response to a particular strike thrown by your opponent. We never just stand in front of each other and fight for a grip/takedown. In Judo and BJJ, however, stand-up consists primarily on obtaining a grip and affecting a take-down. Although even these two differ slightly, in that Judo (typically) takes a square stance and the ensuing battle to break the others balance often progresses like a game of chess whereas BJJ (as I have now found out – and why) tend to take a more staggered stance and the idea is to get to the ground as quickly as possible.

    Next is the takedown/throw. It occurred to me, as I was standing in front of an obviously experienced BJJ blue belt in my first ever comp match (and despite it being my gameplan), that I had never really used a throw as an initial attack before (or at least, not since I was 12). That is, I had not tried to throw someone who wasn’t already “off-balance” or “distracted” (see above – hyphenation to highlight larping drills’ assumptions from sparring outcomes). And that is the beauty/strength of Judo. Although the mechanics of the majority of throws in Judo and Jujitsu are virtually the same or similar, it is the use of the throw as a primary offensive weapon and the entry into the throw that makes the Judo throw that much more effective (at least in this particular setting). Despite this, another major difference is in gripping. Due to the nature of how the throws are setup, in JJ a wider range of grips are used including (but not limited to) a clinch, half-clinch, various locks, two hands on one arm, double arm trap etc. From what I understand (and happy to be corrected) only a handful of throws are ever really practiced in BJJ, with one noteable exception from the other two – jumping guard (and yes I am aware that this is purely a tournament strategy). Having never encountered this before (and I’m pretty sure it’s not kosher in Judo either) I was completely unprepared for this when it happened to me but it’s only real effect was that rather than being able to get a dominant position early via a throw, I was forced to start the match trying to fight out of guard, but more on that later.

    And the end game, groundwork. Purely out of ignorance I am going to lump Judo and jujitsu groundwork in together. I know, in terms of pins/holds at least, that my ryu has a larger catalogue of moves in our syllabus than in say the Kodokan, but only by a handful and two or three of those I wouldn’t personally use anyway. The most striking difference between the two Ju’s and BJJ is an effective guard game. Whilst it is not uncommon for people to pull guard (closed that is - half, open, butterfly and even an occasional spider are encouraged) at my dojo it is not really respected or perfected all that much. We do drill guard passes but it was only when confronted with someone with a really strong guard game that I learnt (the hard way) its effectiveness. Having never drilled guard passes against a strong closed guard game (and given the dismissive attitude towards it, probably never will at my dojo) my passes were weak at best. So no matter what I tried (or how much energy I was burning) I was stuck at the mardi gras end of the engagement getting increasingly frustrated. This, coupled with the stress of competition (and my lack of experience) lead to desperation and ended in a triangle. Mission accomplished. I was relieved to find out, after some help on passing from a BJJ purple belt, that once passed the guard my ne waza was useful at least. Another difference is the variety of guards used in BJJ. X-guard, de la riva, 50-50 and even rubber guard (outside of a botched triangle attempt) I believe are unique to BJJ out of the three (but again, happy to be corrected there).

    Has anyone encountered other differences or can clarify/correct any of the above?
  2. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2011 7:26pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I really think it comes down to this: Given a martial art that is also a combat sport, there is an objective trial for techniques, strategy, and training methods; therefore whatever techniques, strategies, and training methods produce better results under the sport’s rulesets will tend to become promoted and refined. BJJ rules promote groundwork therefore BJJ-ers try their damnedest to get good at it therefore they do. Judo rules promote throws therefore judoka try their damnedest to get good at it therefore they do. Boxing promotes good punching…, …therefore boxers are good at punching. Non-sportive arts lack objective criteria therefore there may be no objective improvement at all.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
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    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  3. dflanmod is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/01/2011 7:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Judo, I know is practissed against a fully resisting opponent.
    BJJ, I know is practissed against a fully resisting opponent.
    All the moves in those two arts can and do at times cross over from system to system. The difference really lies on the focus when comparing Judo and BJJ.

    How is your JJ practissed? Is the opponent fully resisting? If the answer is yes then I would expect that the crossover as compared to the other two could be simillar. If the answer is no then I would not go so far as to lump JJ in with BJJ and Judo. The training methodology in this case is more important than the indiviual techniques. IMO
  4. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/01/2011 7:53pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alright, to add some context, whilst commenting on a different thread it was suggested that I start a thread on some specific differences in the application of techniques between the arts as

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    .... Most of us generally understand the training perspective difference but a lot of people assume that Judo/JJJ and BJJ all contain the same stuff. Expanding on the similarities and differences could be interesting for people that haven't done more than one of them.
  5. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/01/2011 8:13pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dflanmod View Post
    How is your JJ practissed? Is the opponent fully resisting? If the answer is yes then I would expect that the crossover as compared to the other two could be simillar. If the answer is no then I would not go so far as to lump JJ in with BJJ and Judo. The training methodology in this case is more important than the indiviual techniques. IMO
    To answer your question, it varies. In terms of stand-up sparring, we do light-medium contact against a resisting opponent (so not fully resisting by definition I guess), definite no for the throwing drills (hence why I shat myself when I went to apply one in a tournament setting) but definitely yes for ne waza.

    But this is not an attempt to rehash sport vs SD arguments or to define who does what better but rather to see how three different arts drawn from seemingly the same technique pool interpret those techniques differently. You may wish to draw conclusions about them from the differences but I'm more interested in exploring the versatility of the techniques and variances between three closely related disciplines. And rather than do a technique by technique comparison in the OP I thought I would set a scene for it.
  6. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/01/2011 8:42pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As an example, in my JJ when someone is in mount they tend to be a little lower down and not posting with their arms (or not both) as they are either simulating a ground and pound whilst waiting for a sub or going for a sub with the free hand. Hence the escape from mount in JJ doesn't always require you to shift under them so that they are closer to your hips and traps the posting arm with one arm whilst covering the face with the other. This works on that particular mount as the base isn't as strong but against the double arm post is not as good - where use of both arms against a posting arm is more effective. Both are performed against fully resisting opponent but, at least I find, the different interpretations (of both the mounts and the escape) are interesting and useful. I certainly wish I'd had that knowledge before last weekend.
  7. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/01/2011 9:27pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This thread is in the technical forum. Therefore, discussion of what Japanese Jujutsu, or JJJ, lacks in Aliveness has no bearing on the thread other than how the lack of it affects training methodology.

    In other words, bashing JJJ for the way it is trained will not be tolerated. We are here to discuss technique.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  8. dflanmod is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 12:04am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was curious as to the amount of aliveness employed as it would directly relate to succes or failure in graplling and grappling tournaments. Also knowing nothing about JJJ I was curious as to the general training methodology. Or in other words no bashing intended.

    To the op. I feel your pain on the throwing thing. I have trained in 3 different BJJ gyms. All of them practised throws but they were always against compliant partners. I would say I have done less than half a dozen classes where we did the throws live. Hence I have no confidence in my ability to use them IRL.

    So that might be a similarity to JJJ. However I have heard that some BJJ places put more emphasis on the stand up games. Hard to make an across the board comparison on that aspect.
  9. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 12:38am


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dflanmod View Post
    I was curious as to the amount of aliveness employed as it would directly relate to succes or failure in graplling and grappling tournaments. Also knowing nothing about JJJ I was curious as to the general training methodology. Or in other words no bashing intended.

    To the op. I feel your pain on the throwing thing. I have trained in 3 different BJJ gyms. All of them practised throws but they were always against compliant partners. I would say I have done less than half a dozen classes where we did the throws live. Hence I have no confidence in my ability to use them IRL.

    So that might be a similarity to JJJ. However I have heard that some BJJ places put more emphasis on the stand up games. Hard to make an across the board comparison on that aspect.
    So what throws did you learn and did it vary much from gym to gym?
  10. DKJr is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2011 8:22am

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     Style: Combat Cuddling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can only speak about the BJJ gyms I've been to, but I've found most drill compliantly for throws and only some drill those throws or takedowns live. Also one or two have started sparring on the feet so as every roll starts with a takedown or guard pull. When I used to run my university club we would do a warm up of compliant drilling of takedowns, trading a takedowns, defending at 50%, then go full. Most Bjj gyms don't and I wish they did or atleast offer a wrestling class.
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