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  1. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2011 11:03am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OZZ View Post
    Or banging your arms with a senior will do just fine.
    Yeah, nothing quite like that. Slathering jow indeed.
  2. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2011 11:16am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Same level...so is it the type of thing where 10m of dummy conditioning = 20m of heavy bag conditioning, assuming you are striking the same point/"stars"/surface area?

    The makiwara vs. heavy bag discussion for fist conditioning kind of parallels this...

    The bone strengthening study there would suggest that both hitting the bad and hitting the dummy are pretty much the same process (from the bone's POV), but the hard dummy obviously delivers a lot more impact to the bone...So what's better, hitting something harder, or hitting something slightly less hard but longer? I'd love to know the answer to this question.
    My perspective is that bridging on a heavy bag is kinda screwy, because bridging isn't supposed to mean swinging hard forearms into things, it means applying force correctly, and a heavy bag doesn't provide the right medium for that. You're not just substituting bag for wood- you're substituting protruding limb-shaped surfaces for a thick vertical cylinder.
  3. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/28/2011 11:54am


     Style: FMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Same level...so is it the type of thing where 10m of dummy conditioning = 20m of heavy bag conditioning, assuming you are striking the same point/"stars"/surface area?

    The makiwara vs. heavy bag discussion for fist conditioning kind of parallels this...

    The bone strengthening study there would suggest that both hitting the bad and hitting the dummy are pretty much the same process (from the bone's POV), but the hard dummy obviously delivers a lot more impact to the bone...So what's better, hitting something harder, or hitting something slightly less hard but longer? I'd love to know the answer to this question.
    I wouldn't think the argument 10m of dummy = 20m of bag training is a valid one. The same goes for makiwara or padwork or anything else. They all develop different skills and attributes. IMO some of these attributes are more practical in fighting than others. The forearm and bridging conditioning of the dummy only helps those who do chun or a similiar art, and we all know how applicable those arts can be considered to a fight. The bag is used for a multitude of things, power, evasion, hand conditioning, ect. The makiwara conditions the fist to deliver one solid strike, which is useful in it's respective arts where one solid "killing" blow is favored over combinations.

    As for striking the dummy vs. striking the bag? Is the dummy ever actually punched full force and with combinations? I was under the impression that the forearms are the main striking tool used on the dummy. For bag, the forearms are used less (if at all) and the focus is the first and kicks of course but I'm mainly focusing on hand techniques with this little diatribe.

    So to sum up my poorly contained point.
    So what's better, hitting something harder, or hitting something slightly less hard but longer? I'd love to know the answer to this question
    I think it depends on what surface you're striking with, you can't really compare the bag which is mainly a fist conditioning tool to the dummy a forearm conditioning tool. One is not better than the other each suits its own need. The argument of which is better really pertains to which (dummy or bag) trains more useful fighting skills and attributes. The bag I think most here would consider better in that dept. You can swing the bag and work movement and footwork vs. the stationary dummy. You can circle the bag while I assume for the most part you face the dummy from the front and perhaps slightly move off line for some drills. The different uses for the bag are more numerous than the limited uses of the dummy.

    Of course, I've never really trained on a dummy but I've watched guys use them in person and seen a lot of video online so I don't want to be too cocky in my conclusions. Feel free to correct or add onto my argument.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/28/2011 12:04pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    My perspective is that bridging on a heavy bag is kinda screwy, because bridging isn't supposed to mean swinging hard forearms into things, it means applying force correctly, and a heavy bag doesn't provide the right medium for that. You're not just substituting bag for wood- you're substituting protruding limb-shaped surfaces for a thick vertical cylinder.
    Woah Woah Woah.

    Let's stop going in this direction. I didn't say you can do bridging with a heavy bag. I explained why you don't get something so expensive if you aren't committed. Of course, it was much more wordy. Take the heavy bag attachment away you can still use the heavy bag. A good wooden dummy is useless for any other art except bridge heavy MAs.

    If you are going for cheapness get the attachment for saving money. A heavy bag is useless for bridging alone.
  5. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2011 1:10pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    The forearm and bridging conditioning of the dummy only helps those who do chun or a similiar art, and we all know how applicable those arts can be considered to a fight.
    I agreed with your overall post except for this part.

    Bridging is major component of Hung Ga Kuen, and hung ga has been validated in competitions (UFC, lei tai, sanda, etc) for over at least a hundred years. This is why Hung ga is one of the most popular and respected CMAs inside or outside of China...most of the training is directly applicable to fighting.

    Please don't do the crap-by-association game, not all Southern CMA are the same, good hung ga training is very different from wing chun training. That said, of course, bad training is bad training in any art.

    As far as bridging no I never meant to imply using the bag for bridge training, that is something I'd advocate with a partner. We don't really use the dummy that much, because good Hung ga schools actively support alive, resistive bridge training with partners as opposed to dead bridging on objects. That kind of thing is limited to merely toughening the arms on your own. I personally always prefer a partner over any device (get your mind out of the gutter...).

    I meant bone/impact conditioning, the kind you do in da saam sing. Basically, hitting the heavy bag with your forearm as opposed to just your fist. People hit the heavy bag with their fists, feet, knees...what's so bad about hitting it with your forearms?

    Nothing wrong with a good clothesline strike.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 10/28/2011 1:33pm at .
  6. OZZ is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/28/2011 1:32pm

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     Style: Short Fist Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think anyone implied that you could train bridging effectively with a heavy bag.
    The forearm and bridging conditioning of the dummy only helps those who do chun or a similiar art, and we all know how applicable those arts can be considered to a fight.
    Having well-conditioned forearms is beneficial to MMA fighters, kickboxers, muay thai fighters and , to a lesser extent, even boxers.
    This discussion was not intended to be a debate on which training tool, a heavy bag or a wooden dummy, was better overall , rather , the question asked was : which of the two would I be better served by purchasing for training ? I think everyone agrees that a HB is more useful overall, as IIF pointed out.
    Then we began questioning whether the maximal conditioning benefits of an iron or wooden dummy could be obtained through HB work.
    I'm not sure why one wouldn't want to strike a heavybag with their forearms ? I practice hammer and reverse-hammer blows using my forearms on my bag all the time. Not so much for conditioning, but for practicing technique.
    Last edited by OZZ; 10/28/2011 1:38pm at .
    " If one wants to have a friend one must also want to wage war for him: and to wage war one must be capable of being an enemy." - Fr. Nietzsche 'On The Friend' Thus Spake Zarathustra
  7. OZZ is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/28/2011 1:42pm

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     Style: Short Fist Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Applied Combat View Post
    As someone that has spent over ten years putting a lot of time into both, in my experience heavy bags and dummies (mostly) are not used for the same purpose, although there can be some overlap.
    I think this is the common consensus.
    As an overall training tool, a HB will be a better investment. But there are plenty of good reasons to work on a dummy as well, and its not just something that chunners can benefit from.
    " If one wants to have a friend one must also want to wage war for him: and to wage war one must be capable of being an enemy." - Fr. Nietzsche 'On The Friend' Thus Spake Zarathustra
  8. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2011 1:48pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Woah Woah Woah.

    Let's stop going in this direction. I didn't say you can do bridging with a heavy bag. I explained why you don't get something so expensive if you aren't committed. Of course, it was much more wordy. Take the heavy bag attachment away you can still use the heavy bag. A good wooden dummy is useless for any other art except bridge heavy MAs.

    If you are going for cheapness get the attachment for saving money. A heavy bag is useless for bridging alone.
    I agree with you. I was responding to this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    You can do all that bridge conditioning with a heavy bag, too, though.

    I used to use a metal support strut as my da saam sing "dummy", now I just use my bag (and when available, training partners).
  9. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2011 1:52pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I agree with you. I was responding to this post:
    Yep, I wrote that poorly.

    I should have said "forearm conditioning"....to not imply bridging itself. In class we often use "forearm" and "bridge" interchangeably.
  10. Mor Sao is online now
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    Nothing for Show, All for use

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    Posted On:
    10/29/2011 11:26am

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     Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Yeah, nothing quite like that. Slathering jow indeed.
    Did someone say Jow?

    Let me know if I can be of any assistance in that department.

    I am cooking 8 gallons of Black Hand/Big Hand/Ghost Hand Iron Palm medicine as you read this.







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