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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2011 10:25am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Juji jime help please

    I'm terrible at the whole Juji jime (cross choke) family, always have been.

    Juji jime reference, for non Judoka:
    Juji jime - Cross choke
    Gyaku juji jime - Thumbs out
    Nami juji jime - Thumbs in
    Kata Juji jime -One in, One out

    Recently took a BJJ session, because my groundwork needs tightening up and I want an increase in quality sparring partners, unfortunately the club is small satellite and composed of white belts with a purple instructor, will have to expand my travel distance.

    Anyway the technique that came up was Gyaku juji jime from the mount and as usual I just can't get it to work.

    So any advice on the Juji jime family, from mount, please.

    Specifically Gyaku juji jime and Kata juji jime.

    BJJ or Judo input is welcome.
  2. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2011 10:36am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    For BJJ peeps this is a cross collar choke. The thing that helps me get these is a really deep grip if you are in mount fist on the floor deep. The other rule of thumb my coach likes to mention is making sure there is a fist width of fabric between your hands. I basically reach behind uke's head so that these chokes are all done with my forearms and the collar is only a leverage point. The other key is to pull your elbows to your hips when you apply. Lots of people pull the elbows out instead of in toward their own body.
  3. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2011 10:37am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Check out his elbows and hand placement:
  4. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2011 10:56am

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     Style: BJJ

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  5. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2011 11:06am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Anyway the technique that came up was Gyaku juji jime from the mount and as usual I just can't get it to work.
    In what way is it failing? You getting bumped off as you go for the finish? Can't fight the second hand in?

    One thing I've been taught that works for me (but that Roger doesn't emphasise in the above vids) is to sprawl onto your elbows once you've set the grips. You can put enough weight down this way that it makes little to no difference whether he's got a hand inside or not.
  6. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2011 1:31pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    For BJJ peeps this is a cross collar choke. The thing that helps me get these is a really deep grip if you are in mount fist on the floor deep. The other rule of thumb my coach likes to mention is making sure there is a fist width of fabric between your hands. I basically reach behind uke's head so that these chokes are all done with my forearms and the collar is only a leverage point. The other key is to pull your elbows to your hips when you apply. Lots of people pull the elbows out instead of in toward their own body.
    Cheers, I find that the hand I insert first gets bent at the wrist and I can't seem to effectively maintain the grip and apply the choke if I try and keep it straight which is what I was told to do by the purple belt.

    Probably didn't help that he showed what I'm guessing is an unconventional entry where from the mount you put both your forearms and forehead on the mat at about 45 degrees to uke's body and then reach out sideways with your arm to establish the initial lapel grip, which none of the other videos I've found show.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Check out his elbows and hand placement:
    Well I guess that's one way to get under the chin...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    In what way is it failing? You getting bumped off as you go for the finish? Can't fight the second hand in?

    One thing I've been taught that works for me (but that Roger doesn't emphasise in the above vids) is to sprawl onto your elbows once you've set the grips. You can put enough weight down this way that it makes little to no difference whether he's got a hand inside or not.
    The issue is really fundamental in that I struggle to actually get any effect when practising on a partner, not even got as far as randori. As in I'm barely applying any choking pressure and even in compliant drilling they only grudgingly tap when I've done all the steps and have my head on the mat.

    Though having watched the Hoger video and having had a think about it, I think what I'm doing wrong is flaring my elbows outwards so they're coming out over the top of my knees rather than drawing inwards so they stay inside my knees and go more towards the crotch, which is what the Roger video seems to be saying.

    EDIT:
    No doubt the other problems you mention will crop up in due course.
    Last edited by judoka_uk; 10/25/2011 1:35pm at .
  7. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2011 1:49pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Probably didn't help that he showed what I'm guessing is an unconventional entry where from the mount you put both your forearms and forehead on the mat at about 45 degrees to uke's body and then reach out sideways with your arm to establish the initial lapel grip, which none of the other videos I've found show.
    I’ve always been shown setting up the grip from simply sitting up in mount. However, in actual rolling I often lean out 30°–45° or so and post out with my far arm (e.g. lean to the left, post left arm) as I sink my first, near-side (right hand) grip. This is simply because if I try to sit straight while setting my first grip, an awful lot of people just bump and roll. If I’m out to the side, they can’t bump me that way (since I’m posting), nor the other side (my weight is way off to the wrong side). Once I have that first grip, I’m slightly less worried about getting bumped while I go for the second, because my opponent will worry more about blocking my second hand than about bumping me off (if I get the grip and they bump, well, I can still finish the choke off my back)—and because I can pull on the first grip to lift their head off the floor and reduce the effective power of the bump.

    Other people are just better at keeping their balance in mount/suppressing the bump escape with good weight distribution and can more easily work the grip from a more textbook, “central” alignment.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
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  8. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2011 3:52pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I understand where you are coming from Judoka UK. It's difficult to explain how to use the hands/wrists to apply the chokes correctly, I always have to show people and have them do it to me so I can correct them on the fly.

    For one thing, Gyaku is usually used when tori is underneath. Nami more often when on top. Kata can be used for either way. I rarely use Nami from any position, usually from top but I rarely use cross chokes from top, mostly from bottom, for some reason.

    The real problem likely is you haven't figured out how to use your wrists correctly. I saw something about keeping them straight, but that isn't what I do. You need to put wrist action into the choke. For Nami, you are choking with the outside edge of your hand and and lower end of your wrist, for Gyaku the thumb side. Done correctly, that is about all it takes to apply them, although of course you need control of uke body as well so they can't escape.

    Anyway, you need to bend your wrists so the cutting/contact edge is in full contact with the carotid triangle area. This will work if the cloth is doing the cutting as well. this brings full contact/no space between the wrist/cloth and the neck. The other advice about not pulling the arms apart is correct as well of course.

    The final trick is to be able to apply the weight of your (an uke at time) bodies to your wrists and hence uke neck. Combine the wrist action and that, and people go to sleep very quickly and painlessly.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. Mo_Fo is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2011 4:18pm


     Style: BJJ, Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I apologize ahead of time if this video is a repost, I cannot see what has been posted already while at work (streaming is blocked w/firewalls).

    This one is one of my favorites because of how well everything is broken down and explained. I also find it works very well because of the simplicity. I was never catching the cross from the top & always being swept until I slowed down and followed this video step by step:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1nx...e_gdata_player

    I hope this helps.
  10. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2011 4:34pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's a tip. Incrementally tighten the choke, millimeter by millimeter.

    Once I set my hands usually in gyaku I start applying constant steady pressure focusing on flexing my bottom arm which has the fingers in like I'm curling a dumbbell. My top hand will grab the back of the gi and I will not generally use the lapel making a cats paw grip. This allows me to move my top hand tighter in small increments. Elbows stay tight and I puff out my chest while pulling and flexing my elbows.

    I use to struggle with them now I do them from mount guard and standing.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk please ignore typos.
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