1947 Judo. What have we lost?

[judoka_uk]

Well I will have to disagree with you. Standing armlocks work I do them in BJJ judo MMA and self defense. I seen them work at the Olympic level.

Yeh sure a standard Waki gatame will work, we've all seen them applied, but those are situational - tori wants to maintain a lapel grip for contest purposes, how well does that transfer to self defence?

Also the people we see applying a standing waki gatame are very good and very strong.

When you watch Tmenov apply a standing waki its another planet to a 150lb girl trying to apply it on a 200lb male.

Again look at her movement and the way she is throwing how she is technically sound.

Yeh its fine, as a demo...

You and I both know take a good enough uke and we can make practically anyone look the tits for a demo.

Randori is the rub and she would not be able to pull of these techniques in randori, as you Americans say, period.

Yes it's Kata but that was the purpose of kata to be able to CONTINUALLY practice self defense skills in the event you had to use them to defend yourself not win a match.

I would dispute that the purpose of kata was to practice self defence skills.

Kata was a form of practice that even Kano, back in the 1920s/30s recognised was on the way out.

Hence why he adapted kata to be broader church so that 'kata' extended to uchikomi and nagekomi etc...

And he recognised the centrality of shiai and randori.

As you and I know, even 80 years later the, so called, 'contest Judo' more than adequately equips you to defend yourself in an unarmed altercation. In fact I'm, sure that if you had a chance to bet on how a nationally ranked US sport Judoka would fair in an unarmed fight as compared to an experienced US kata and 'self defence' Judoka that just like me, your money would be on the 'sport' Judoka.

My point is that with American ingenuity and monetary support for an activity with so many benefits besides self defense think of the methods and innovations we could have in Judo.

Maybe because it wasn't solely American like say basketball. It was relegated to sub amateur status.

Well really how much innovation could have happened above and beyond the innovation that has already happened?

There have been many innovations in Judo over the last half dozen decades, spread across the world, I'm not sure whether America would have had any real impact on innovation given its relatively small size.

Various methods and technical innovations have blossomed across the world, indeed, America has often been a place that has embraced these new methods and innovations, often, seemingly without understand the fundamental skills that underpinned them or the fine details of the innovations themselves.

So I'm not sure innovation has really been a friend of American Judo or that American Judo had the strength and depth in which technical innovation could occur.

Judo has a rich history in England so your perspective may be off a little JUK.

I'm not sure our history is anymore distinguished than the US, certainly in terms of Japanese nationals you have a greater pedigree than we do.

However, we were exposed to more high quality competition due to our proximity to Europe, than America was.

One thing to add

You need to do the kata stuff in addition to randori not just kata.

If you use kata in the wider sense of general drilling such as uchikomi and nagekomi, I 100% agree. If you mean kata in the narrow classical sense of the nage no kata etc... then I disagree, those training methods were efficient 80 years ago, but now we have more effective and efficient training methods that, I think, negate traditional kata.

[Team Python]

I think Judo that is practice in the U.S. is not the same as in European countries or Japan. I think sport in any martial art can be problematic at times. I see the same happening in BJJ as well. I have personally talked with Masters and Grandmasters in BJJ and they say that BJJ is being watered down in a lot of the schools due to the competition aspect of BJJ. Personally I hope BJJ never becomes an Olympic sport.

[judoka_uk]

I think Judo that is practice in the U.S. is not the same as in European countries or Japan. I think sport in any martial art can be problematic at times. I see the same happening in BJJ as well. I have personally talked with Masters and Grandmasters in BJJ and they say that BJJ is being watered down in a lot of the schools due to the competition aspect of BJJ.

I diasgree.

When you learn Judo or BJJ properly with a full emphasis on the fundamentals you will develop well.

However, would I rather fight a UK/US national Judo medalist or a UK/US 'self defence trainee'? I'll tell you, I'd much rather fight the 'self defence' trainee.

I know the likes of Alex Paske, Rahul Bose, Jan Gosiewski, Tom Reed, Adam Hall, Nicholi Dailey, John Kunzi, Ifor Capel, Theo Spalding Macintosh could literally kill me. They have never trained a day of 'self defence' in their lives, but these boys are fucking deadly.

You match any of them in unarmed conflict against a 'self defence practitioner' or 'street thug' and the SD practitioner/ thug will get utterly raped. In fact I would pay to see the results of it, it would be lol-tastic.

Personally I hope BJJ never becomes an Olympic sport.

BJJ will never become an olympic sport, for a start it needs to standardise drug testing.

[Jim_Jude]

I love how the Old Men of Judo had such high regard for Judo kata, while so many Judo practitioners of today are more than comfortable throwing them all away.
"We made Judo better, the old ways are out-dated and useless, blahblahblahblah...."
& we still have BJJ old timers around who are pointing out that BJJ is already being watered down and fucked up by the "we know better" new crowd.

[judoka_uk]

I love how the Old Men of Judo had such high regard for Judo kata, while so many Judo practitioners of today are more than comfortable throwing them all away.
"We made Judo better, the old ways are out-dated and useless, blahblahblahblah...."
& we still have BJJ old timers around who are pointing out that BJJ is already being watered down and fucked up by the "we know better" new crowd.

What? Jog on Jim.

If you knew anything about Judo or BJJ you wouldn't be creating this false dichotomy.

Both Judo and BJJ have older and younger practitioners who are opposed to the self defence line of thinking and older and younger practitioners who are in favour of the self defence line of thinking.

[Hedgehogey]

If you portray yourself as the old school party, you can portray the other side of the argument as the brash young type with a full cup.

[Jim_Jude]

"...false dichotomy..." LOL

[Team Python]

I diasgree.

When you learn Judo or BJJ properly with a full emphasis on the fundamentals you will develop well.

However, would I rather fight a UK/US national Judo medalist or a UK/US 'self defence trainee'? I'll tell you, I'd much rather fight the 'self defence' trainee.

I know the likes of Alex Paske, Rahul Bose, Jan Gosiewski, Tom Reed, Adam Hall, Nicholi Dailey, John Kunzi, Ifor Capel, Theo Spalding Macintosh could literally kill me. They have never trained a day of 'self defence' in their lives, but these boys are fucking deadly.

You match any of them in unarmed conflict against a 'self defence practitioner' or 'street thug' and the SD practitioner/ thug will get utterly raped. In fact I would pay to see the results of it, it would be lol-tastic.


BJJ will never become an olympic sport, for a start it needs to standardise drug testing.

I meant the Judo practiced in the U.S. is not as good as other countries but that is my opinion and I could be wrong. Yeah they will never test for BJJ competition because a lot of people that compete do use steroids.

[erezb]

Well I will have to disagree with you. Standing armlocks work I do them in BJJ judo MMA and self defense. I seen them work at the Olympic level.

Again look at her movement and the way she is throwing how she is technically sound.

Yes it's Kata but that was the purpose of kata to be able to CONTINUALLY practice self defense skills in the event you had to use them to defend yourself not win a match.

My point is that with American ingenuity and monetary support for an activity with so many benefits besides self defense think of the methods and innovations we could have in Judo.

Maybe because it wasn't solely American like say basketball. It was relegated to sub amateur status.

Judo has a rich history in England so your perspective may be off a little JUK.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk please ignore typos.

you guys have good wrestling in the USA, i guess if a kid is to choose he will go with the one that can earn him a scholarship.

[judoka_uk]

I meant the Judo practiced in the U.S. is not as good as other countries but that is my opinion and I could be wrong.

Yeh, sorry, missed your point didn't I.

No it isn't if you compare it to the Judo powerhouses of Korea, Russia, France, Germany, Holland etc...

You're kind of in the same tier as us in the UK.

Yeah they will never test for BJJ competition because a lot of people that compete do use steroids.

Also you need to expand the IBJJF to be a truly global governing body, set up national governing bodies, have every club register with that NGB and thus to the IBJJF, come under government regs like Title XI, meet certain accounting and procedural rules to qualify for Olympic committee cash etc...

None of which I think you guys really want. Anyway that's getting away from the thread topic, so let's leave it there.