Boxing HW division after Klitschko era

**atomicpoet** · Posted On: 10/19/2011 6:28pm

Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon

Well, if you think back, John L. Sullivan used to walk into Bars and declaim "I can lick any bum in the house". He meant it.

It's a bit like being the best fighter in school except it's the World. "The Richest Prize in Sport" is another title - although not often heard these days. The Great Reg Gutteridge (UK boxer commentator) used the term and it was common currency in the Boxing Press or Sports pages of the tabloid/Broadsheet newspapers.

In common parlance, most people would think of the World HW Champ as the best fighter in the World. Wrestling - leaving aside Gene LeBell v Milo Savage in the early 1960s - was viewed mainly as Entertainment. Particularly for women - who seem to love watching sweating men assault each other. In truth, leaving aside the 'agreements' most wrestlers would be severly hurting the average bloke. Mock them at your peril.

The Japanese arts, say, Karate + Judo, had mystique but few well known exponents. Karate only got going in the UK in the 1960s, whereas Judo had a much better pedigree following the founding of The Budokwai under Gunji Koizumi. Yet is was a niche art.

Boxing tends to be summed up as "As go the HWs, so goes boxing". In other words, HWs are very much in the Shop Window, and that is how you draw in the customers into the shop to look at the 'smaller' models.

To finish, most people are now aware of Ali v Inoki (I saw it at the time on UK TV - God it was boring) and Ali was also featured in a TV special; over here, Ali has been very popular for years. Anyway, he was interviewed by Dickie Davies and Ali said that he was looking at fighting a Karate guy but the stipulation was that he would have to wear boxing gloves (in a manner of speaking) on his feet. Ali commented, "I will eat him up". He meant it too - well, he was never short of Confidence. The interview took place after he'd KO'd Big George but before The Thrilla in Manila.

Cheers

I think it depends where you go in the world.

East Asia and Latin America have always preferred the little guys to the heavyweights. For instance, good luck finding anyone notable above Middleweight in Japan, but they have a whole lot of champions between Strawweight and Lightweight. A notable example would be the Kameda Bros., who are the biggest draw in Japan.

Mexico is the same way. There's more champions from Mexico than any other country right now. Yet, apart from Chris Arreola, Mexicans are practically invisible in the heavyweight scene.

Now, there's no doubt in my mind that with few American heavyweight prospects, Americans have shown little interest in boxing recently. However, I think this is beginning to change. Here's why:

The legend of the Gatti-Ward Trilogy has grown in the past 10 years. A sequel to The Fighter is in the works, as is a biopic about Arturo Gatti.
It's commonly assumed now that it's the little guys who are the best boxers. Pacquiao and Mayweather's superstar status only confirms this.
Previously, TV rarely broadcast the little guys in favour of the HW division. However, recently the HW division has been completely snubbed in favour of the little guys.
The Internet has revealed an untapped market. Guys like El Chocolatito, who would have toiled in obscurity, are now receiving a cult following, as his videos get passed around virally on YouTube.

Don't get me wrong. There's a portion of America that will never tune into boxing unless there's an American heavyweight contender. But at least there's now a bigger audience for the little guys than there was before.

**OZZ** · Posted On: 10/19/2011 6:42pm

Middleweights and Welters have always drawn respectfully..Zale-Graziano , Robinson - LaMotta , Hearns-Hagler, Leonard- Duran etc. etc. there's been plenty of awesome action that's been well-recognized over the years.
In the early to mid 80's( before Tyson came along) when HW's sucked, people came out for Leonard, Hagler, Duran , Arguello, Pryor and Hearns in droves...
Light Heavyweight has always been an underappreciated weight class in my opinion.

**RWaggs** · Posted On: 10/20/2011 1:37pm

Not that it would happen, but Joe Rogan made the point a couple weeks ago that Cain Velasquez could probably make waves in the boxing HW div, if he wanted to. I tend to agree.

**hpr** · Posted On: 10/20/2011 1:50pm

Yay. Just read that Helenius is fighting in Helsinki 3rd of December. Sauerland hasn't published any details about his opponent yet, though.

**Super8astard** · Posted On: 10/20/2011 2:42pm

Originally Posted by RWaggs

Not that it would happen, but Joe Rogan made the point a couple weeks ago that Cain Velasquez could probably make waves in the boxing HW div, if he wanted to. I tend to agree.

No more than Kimbo is. I don't see Cain getting any farther in boxing than 4 rounders and paid losers. If Kongo can almost KO him, he would have to never get hit as a boxer.

**MMAMickey** · Posted On: 10/20/2011 3:27pm

Originally Posted by RWaggs

Not that it would happen, but Joe Rogan made the point a couple weeks ago that Cain Velasquez could probably make waves in the boxing HW div, if he wanted to. I tend to agree.

I don't. Not against anyone worth fighting anyway.

**atomicpoet** · Posted On: 10/20/2011 3:58pm

Helenius vs. Demitrenko is actually a good fight, and settles a lot of questions.

If Helenius wins, he will have gotten rid of (IMO) a very overrated fighter who's yet to step up in competition. If Demitrenko wins, it answers whether Helenius is the prospect we all believe he is.

**Eddie Hardon** · Posted On: 10/20/2011 4:43pm

Originally Posted by atomicpoet

I think it depends where you go in the world.

East Asia and Latin America have always preferred the little guys to the heavyweights. For instance, good luck finding anyone notable above Middleweight in Japan, but they have a whole lot of champions between Strawweight and Lightweight. A notable example would be the Kameda Bros., who are the biggest draw in Japan.

Mexico is the same way. There's more champions from Mexico than any other country right now. Yet, apart from Chris Arreola, Mexicans are practically invisible in the heavyweight scene.

Well, I know all this. Ruben Olivares, ChuChu Castillo onwards and the Pone Kingpetchs and Flash Elordes, Fighting Haradas of Me-hi-co, Thailand, The Phillippines, Japan etc., yep, all accounted for. Form your own opinion of Diet and Genetics, but certainly America produced such extraordinary boxers and fighters and Hunger was certainly a factor. Allied to talent, opportunity with boxing clubs, knowledge but things change. For many, I suppose other American Sports, say, NFL may be a draw for those who might otherwise gone into boxing but with Scholarships, Financial backing etc, may be it's an easier course. I invite your opinion as you will know more of this than I do.

Those extraordinary Amateur boxing teams that the USA fielded also seem to be something of a thing of the past.

I'm reading AJ Leibling's "The Sweet Science", something that I avoided for years. I'm certainly enjoying it now and it bespeaks of that extraordinary American Talent for Boxing that ran for almost the entire 20th C. but seems very much of its Time - and most certainly in the Past.

Cheers

**atomicpoet** · Posted On: 10/20/2011 5:28pm

Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon

I'm reading AJ Leibling's "The Sweet Science", something that I avoided for years. I'm certainly enjoying it now and it bespeaks of that extraordinary American Talent for Boxing that ran for almost the entire 20th C. but seems very much of its Time - and most certainly in the Past.

Cheers

At one time, the two great American past-times were baseball and boxing. Obviously, that has shifted, and the athletes who had the body types for boxing may have thought that they'd make more money playing football or basketball. But that's just one factor.

Football and basketball has been massively popular in America for the past 60 years. Yet, Americans were still dominant in heavyweight boxing until the early 00s. So why the shift?

The answer is that, until the 90s, Eastern Europeans were not able to compete professionally due to Communism. Starting in the 90s, that began to shift -- and Andrew Golota was a harbinger. If you look at the top 10 HWs today, 8 of the top 10 are from Eastern Europe:

Wladimir Klitschko - Ukraine
Vitali Klitschko - Ukraine
Alexander Povetkin - Russia
Tomasz Adamek - Poland
Eddie Chambers - USA
Robert Helenius - Finland (while not communist, boxing was heavily discouraged in the country before the 90s)
Alexander Dimitrenko - Ukraine
Denis Boytsov - Russia
Ruslan Chagaev - Uzbekistan
Chris Arreola - USA

If we take away Eastern Europeans as factors in the HW division, you will find that America actually does pretty well for itself. In fact, the HW division would look like this:

Eddie Chambers - USA
Chris Arreola - USA
Tony Thompson - USA
Tyson Fury - UK
Odlanier Solis - Cuba
Franklin Lawrence - USA
Jean-Marc Mormeck - France
Evander Holyfield - USA
Samuel Peter - Nigeria
Bermane Stiverne - Canada

5 Americans in the top 10 isn't so bad. Of those HWs who are not Americans, only two of them have residences outside the USA (Tyson Fury and Jean-Marc Mormeck).

What this tells me is that the emergence of Eastern Europe as a HW boxing powerhouse is more significant than the popularity of basketball and football in America. If the Iron Curtain did not fall, perhaps Eddie Chambers would be a major American cultural icon.

Of course, one other factor is what Lennox Lewis calls The Klitschko Gap. There is a lot of American talent coming up, but they're just too green right now.

**Eddie Hardon** · Posted On: 10/21/2011 1:09pm

Your point re East Europeans is fair. It's also obvious to all who have followed the challenges from Golota to-date.

However, I contend that the answer is more to be the dearth of American HWs. I've alluded to what some of the reasons might be for this, though I claim no authority. I read The Ring (and have done for 30+ years) and had, at one point, the entire collection from 1950 to 1960 so I'm fairly steeped in the history of boxing, especially from the American viewpoint.

Perhaps there are easier career options for Large, Athletic 'Mericans?

For the Record, I liked Lennox and the more so once he was trained out of the habit of throwing the Overhand Right for the much better Right, Straight from the Shoulder. For me, it seemed that Americans began to fall out of love with (HW) Boxing once it left its hands. The slew of non-Americans who have won and passed on the World HW title only seems to have compounded Americas growing indifference.

The growth of UFC and its emphasis on the heavier weight categories (no one under 155lbs at one stage) might have drawn some who might have gone down the HW Boxing route but I'm not sure how accurate this point might be.

Thoughts?