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  1. old guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2010 4:39pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    NABARD CMA discussion.

    First off, I'd like to say that there's no offense intended to anyone in what I'm writing, although a few may take offense.

    Number one. Things are what they are, and it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks if the individual is satisfied w/ what they're getting from whatever school/style they're working with.

    Number two. Ignorance is OK, willful ignorance isn't. Don't adjust observations to fit your beliefs, modify your beliefs to agree w/ what you observe.

    Number three. Loyalty is good, blind loyalty isn't. A true friend will tell you what's up, not tell you what you want to hear.

    As far as efficacy, every style has it's strengths and weakness' and TOAS/Nabard is no different. Not everyone is going to turn into a fighter, most are going to be dancers. A problem I have w/ the videos, is that they really aren't that great. In the "fight like a girl" video, the girl moves decently, but the guy isn't doing anything at all. I see no strength in her postures/movements, but is isn't necessary because the guy is offering minimal resistance.

    Ostard, I think I know who you are, and even if I don't, this still applies. Things change, goals, motives, needs etc. I tend to think of the students in terms of groups, although there was of course quite a be of variance, certain groups of people trained during specific periods of time. In the group I was in master Safakhoo was quite a bit more personable, and treated the core group as friends. We were told quite a few stories of his master, early training, entry into the U.S. Origins of his style etc. etc. Apparently this didn't continue much further than my "group". It certainly didn't occur w/ the rest of the class. You used to have to be there at least 2 years before he considered you a real student.

    From what I read on the web, kung fu To-a has quite a few components, a lot I haven't seen myself. Seems reasonable if Mirzaii's school was in fact a live-in school. Although an odd style compared to some, I don't see any reason to be ashamed about it being the core of Nabard, as it currently exists.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/15/2010 6:37pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    First off, I'd like to say that there's no offense intended to anyone in what I'm writing, although a few may take offense.

    Number one. Things are what they are, and it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks if the individual is satisfied w/ what they're getting from whatever school/style they're working with.
    This has been stated multiple times, all over this website. It is also irrelevant to the thread. Someone didn't believe his claim of a true Peruvian Martial Art. The end.

    Fun and everything else is really irrelevant.


    Number two. Ignorance is OK, willful ignorance isn't. Don't adjust observations to fit your beliefs, modify your beliefs to agree w/ what you observe.
    Okay stop.
  3. old guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2010 4:19am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Again, no offense intended, but my last post was really directed at Safakhoo's students. Particularly Ostard. There's no doubt that Nabard is based on kung gu toa. This used to be open knowledge. Reading what's available regarding Mirzaii, there's no doubt that kung fu Toa is base on CMA. At best, Nabard is Persian flavored CMA. IMO Mirzaii's teacher/teachers taught a mix or styles. "It is fake", there's nothing of wing chun in TOAS. None of the techniques, forms, or skills of Wing chun exist in TOAS. Most, if not all of the techniques in TOAS appear to be based on generic Shaolin techniques.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/16/2010 8:22am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I understand but, we are getting into off topic things. In this subforum we moderate stronger. We are entering the belief stage of the argument and that doesn't belong in here.
  5. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/16/2010 9:28am

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    Again, no offense intended, but my last post was really directed at Safakhoo's students. Particularly Ostard. There's no doubt that Nabard is based on kung gu toa. This used to be open knowledge. Reading what's available regarding Mirzaii, there's no doubt that kung fu Toa is base on CMA. At best, Nabard is Persian flavored CMA. IMO Mirzaii's teacher/teachers taught a mix or styles. "It is fake", there's nothing of wing chun in TOAS. None of the techniques, forms, or skills of Wing chun exist in TOAS. Most, if not all of the techniques in TOAS appear to be based on generic Shaolin techniques.
    So what do they use those Wing Chun dummies for?
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/16/2010 9:52am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    YouTube- Shamsher and Khanjar (sword) techniques of Nabard

    Part 30 is lifted from a Wing Chun butterfly knive form:

    YouTube- Wing Chun - William Cheung - Butterfly Knife form

    Yes, they add some higher kicks and some dips but, that is a snippet of a WC butterfly knives form.

    We can argue all day I see CMA mixed into the art and specific styles mixed in.

    It is a mish mash you can't say what is in there definitively or not.
  7. j.s.t. is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2010 11:45am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Over the course of years, and in my experience of being in and out of the training at Safakhoo's school, I have seen the training evolve over time. Old Guy is right in saying that the school used to teach Kung Fu Toa, but I believe, over time, Safakhoo has given the art that he teaches a new shape by incorporating other types of training. My guess is that he will continue to allow the art to shift in expression while maintaining those things which, to him, are deemed useful and effective.
  8. old guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2010 12:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    During the time I was there, the sparring dummies weren't used at all. There are of course some techniques taught that are similar to Wing chun. AFAIK, no one knew sticking at all except for me, and mine came from wrestling, not wing chun. Of course sticking isn't taught in wrestling, but it's a skill you learn quickly as well as the equivalent of the "three legged stance", "foot guiding", and "torso joining". My core balance and strength came from wrestling, not martial arts. I find there's quite a bit of overlap in skills needed, regardless of the style. Example is the butterfly sword video. The butterfly sword form is different from wing chun, but techniques are going to be similar just because of the nature of the weapons. I also ended up learning a Choy li fut butterfly sword form also, (not at TOAS), which unsurprisingly also has similar techniques. The posted videos are mostly just PR, similar to the "magic" chi demonstrations some schools do. The straight sword video is a TOAS form, done sloppily IMO, but if you look at how it's performed, it's largely incorrect for a Chinese gim. The gim supposedly only has a few inches of the tip sharpened, but there's little to no control of the sword tip in the video. I can't remember if there's a broadsword video available, but the form doesn't include the basic wrap, slash that's present in every CMA broadsword form I've seen so far. Again I don't have a clue where the weapons forms come from.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/16/2010 2:50pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    During the time I was there, the sparring dummies weren't used at all. There are of course some techniques taught that are similar to Wing chun. AFAIK, no one knew sticking at all except for me, and mine came from wrestling, not wing chun. Of course sticking isn't taught in wrestling, but it's a skill you learn quickly as well as the equivalent of the "three legged stance", "foot guiding", and "torso joining". My core balance and strength came from wrestling, not martial arts. I find there's quite a bit of overlap in skills needed, regardless of the style. Example is the butterfly sword video. The butterfly sword form is different from wing chun, but techniques are going to be similar just because of the nature of the weapons. I also ended up learning a Choy li fut butterfly sword form also, (not at TOAS), which unsurprisingly also has similar techniques. The posted videos are mostly just PR, similar to the "magic" chi demonstrations some schools do. The straight sword video is a TOAS form, done sloppily IMO, but if you look at how it's performed, it's largely incorrect for a Chinese gim. The gim supposedly only has a few inches of the tip sharpened, but there's little to no control of the sword tip in the video. I can't remember if there's a broadsword video available, but the form doesn't include the basic wrap, slash that's present in every CMA broadsword form I've seen so far. Again I don't have a clue where the weapons forms come from.
    Yes, we know you have a snippet of time that obviously isn't inclusive. So, you saying anything definitively is wrong. The school has morphed and is not a Resurrected version of a Persian Martial art.

    There are other sub-forums to discuss what is and isn't in this school.

    Once upon a time it was called and considered Chinese Kung fu. Now, the angry students are saying it is not. The old website proves that it was Kung Fu by the instructors own words.

    The rest is fluff.
  10. j.s.t. is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2010 3:28pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I actually do remember watching one of his private students practicing "Varzeshe Bastani" techniques with a shock absorber from a motorcycle. This was back in the early to mid 90's. My point is that, since Safakhoo was born and raised in 'Persia' he was also experienced (to some degree) in the traditional conditioning methods of that culture. If it is the case that T'oa was the martial art that he focused on the most while there, that doesn't mean that his base of experience doesn't include deeper cultural influence from his native homeland.

    I agree with Old Guy, again. The videos that are on the web aren't *to me* representative of the the skills of Master Safakhoo or some of the better instructors that I have know personally (with the exception of Master Safakhoo, himself, demonstrating a bit on the UTD in some of the youtube video's). I do wish that they would put something of more substance 'out there'.

    I mean no disrespect to those students and teachers in the video's, but if you were around 'back in the day' at the academy (and a couple of you were), you know exactly what I am referring to.
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