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  1. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2014 2:16pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    FB rage posting!

    There is the usual Sport vs Art row that I have become embroiled in on FB. Anyway to cut a long story short is what this guy is saying true? Judo being a term prior to Kano? I'm fairly certain he is wrong about Jiu Jitsu being a 'romanic' name for judo. I thought it referred to translating Kanji into the alphabet??

    I quote...

    'Jigaro Kano (who studied at Japan’s Tokyo Imperial University) was the founder of Kodokan (a place for the studying the way) Judo in 1882. The terminology ‘Judo’ had first been used by Jikishin Ryu some 200 yrs previously), and Kano used the term ‘Judo’ to distance his style from the older and more brutal styles of Ju-Jutsu (Ju as used in Judo means flexible, not ‘Gentle’ as is often misquoted. Jutsu means craft, not ‘Art’ as it is often mistranslated).

    Also you are wrong about Jiu Jitsu, it is an old romanic name for Judo

    Muay Thai is a sport which evolved from the old Siamese military arts, it is not a military art, and it is a sport!

    Karate modern???!!! Really! The name karate is modern and was changed to Karate by Gichin Funakoshi when he was in Japan and this was accepted by the Okinawan Masters because the previous Kara meant China, the old Kara te meaning China hand (previously Okinawan te). This was not going to be accepted by the Japanese at that time, because they were at war with China. BTW Karate does not mean Empty handed as in empty handed martial art using no weapons.

    Karate come from the old Okinawan styles, which had influences from Siam and China, as well as their own developments, Karate is far from a new style, it was originally developed by high ranking Okinawan’s for use in warfare and self defence.

    General Choi served and fought in the Japanese army in WW2, and whilst in Japan he learnt Shotokan Karate gaining a 1st Dan. He gained a 2nd Dan when he had returned to Korea. Once back in Korea he began to formulate his own style which was heavily influenced by both his Shotokan training and experiences of war, and came up with the term Taekwondo, which was originally intended as an umbrella name for various Kwans etc. TKD in the early days was undoubtedly viewed as a military art.

    Regarding the match between Helio and Kimura, Helio arranged the rules to favour his version of Judo, rather than sport Judo rules, meaning Kimura would not be used to fighting in that method, either way had Kimura been allowed to use his karate as well, Helio would have been hospitalised.'

    Is any of this accurate?

    I appreciate any help and I apologise if I have put this in the wrong place or wasted anyone's time.

    Thank you.
  2. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/26/2014 2:39pm

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     Style: 柔術

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Owl View Post

    'Jigaro Kano (who studied at Japan’s Tokyo Imperial University) was the founder of Kodokan (a place for the studying the way) Judo in 1882. The terminology ‘Judo’ had first been used by Jikishin Ryu some 200 yrs previously), and Kano used the term ‘Judo’ to distance his style from the older and more brutal styles of Ju-Jutsu (Ju as used in Judo means flexible, not ‘Gentle’ as is often misquoted. Jutsu means craft, not ‘Art’ as it is often mistranslated).
    I remember reading this in a Serge Mol book many years ago. The book is in storage at the moment so I can't check. However, I also do remember him saying Jikishin-ryu Judo had no relation to modern day Judo.



    * I am going to move this the YMAS to the JMA Forum
  3. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/26/2014 8:10pm


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The whole jutsu/do thing is overblown in the west, I blame Draegger. I would not be surprised to hear that other schools had called their wrasslin judo. However these days when we say judo we mean Kano's judo or one of its variants.

    At any rate most of what he's saying I've heard before. I can't vouch for accuracy 100% but nothing too outrageous. The kanji for karate was changed, a lot of karate did originate in Okinawa, TKD has its roots in Shotokan, etc etc
  4. The Cap is offline
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    ORNYTHORINQUE!... BOIT-SANS-SOIF!... BACHI-BOUZOUK!

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2014 8:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Owl View Post
    [H]ad Kimura been allowed to use his karate as well, Helio would have been hospitalised.'
    What version did he read? Helio WAS hospitalized.
  5. BJMills is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2014 8:59pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Didn't know Kimura did any type of Karate. What style?

    Also if Helio changed the rules to disallow this, what rules was Kimura used to competing under? I just assumed it was koda kan rules at the time.
  6. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/26/2014 9:50pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Owl View Post
    General Choi served and fought in the Japanese army in WW2, and whilst in Japan he learnt Shotokan Karate gaining a 1st Dan. He gained a 2nd Dan when he had returned to Korea. Once back in Korea he began to formulate his own style which was heavily influenced by both his Shotokan training and experiences of war, and came up with the term Taekwondo, which was originally intended as an umbrella name for various Kwans etc. TKD in the early days was undoubtedly viewed as a military art.
    Its not clear that Choi Hong Hi was alone responsible for the name Taekwondo. There were a number of other principals in the Chung Do Kwan School of Tang Soo Do who may have been involved in selecting that name.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duk_Sung_Son
    “A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its laws made by cowards and its wars fought by fools.” ― Thucydides
  7. DARPAChief is online now

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2014 10:29pm


     

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    Here's an abstract of a certain paper that deals with the term "Judo". Does anyone know where to get the whole thing?

    http://web.archive.org/web/200406122.../Bulletin1.htm

    A Study on the Origin of the name "Judo"

    By: Yoshiaki Todo (Tsukuba University) and Naoki Murata (Kodokan Judo Institute)

    Abstract

    Research was conducted to trace the name "judo" back to its origins in the jujitsu period. The results were as follows:

    The first use of the name judo was by Seijun Inoue IV, who applied it to his Jujitsu of Jikishin-ryu. Students of Jikishin-ryu Judo were not only expected to master its ninety-seven techniques, but to also develop into generous and gentle-mannered individuals.

    Kuninori Suzuki V, the Master of Kito-ryu Jujitsi, changed the name of Kito-kumiuchi to Kito-ryu Judo in 1714. The purpose of Kito-ryu Judo training is to tap the vital energy of the universe, fusing the universe and the student into one, thus allowing students to lead their lives with sincerity. Twenty-one techniques in the kata of Kito-ryu Judo are meant for hand-to-hand fighting, with both combatants being completely clad in armor. Latent in these techniques is the principle of kuzushi, which is the key to the throwing techniques of modern Judo.

    Jigoro Kano studied the judo of Jikishin-ryu and Kito-ryu, and incorporated some of their concepts into his original system, which he named Kodokan Judo.
    Last edited by DARPAChief; 1/26/2014 10:44pm at .
  8. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2014 1:05am

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     Style: (Hung Ga+BJJ+MT+JKD) ^ Qi

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    The kanji for karate was changed,
    because the previous Kara meant China, the old Kara te meaning China hand
    Neil is right, and the latter depends on your native language.

    In China, 唐 was the symbol for the Tang Emperor, not "China" in general.

    So eventually (specifically after the 10th century) the kanji would have changed from the Tang (Dynasty) Hand 唐手 to "empty hand", 空手, eliminating any reference to Chinese origins.
  9. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2014 8:29am


     Style: Karate, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by BJMills View Post
    Didn't know Kimura did any type of Karate. What style?

    Also if Helio changed the rules to disallow this, what rules was Kimura used to competing under? I just assumed it was koda kan rules at the time.
    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura

    "Kimura also entered Karate in his pursuit of martial arts, believing that karate would strengthen his hands. First he trained what today is known as Shotokan Karate under its founder Gichin Funakoshi for two years, but eventually switched to training Goju-Ryu Karate under So-Nei Chu (a pupil of Goju-ryu karate legend Chojun Miyagi) and finally became an assistant instructor, along with Gogen Yamaguchi and Masutatsu Oyama in his dojo. In his Autobiography, Kimura attributes the use of the makiwara (a karate training implement) as taught to him by So Neichu and his friend and training partner Masutatsu Oyama, as being a significant contributor to his consequent tournament success. He began using the makiwara daily prior to his first All Japan success and never lost another competition bout."
  10. Shawarma is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2014 10:09am


     

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's also this entertaining excerpt from Kimura's book regarding his encounter with an American boxer:

    "In those days, there was a black boxer named T. He was a big man weighing about 100kg, and has won a pro title. He was the best boxer in the US Marine Corps. "I am no match to you in judo, but in boxing, you will never beat me." He boasted. One day I practiced boxing with him. Since I was trained in Karate, I thought "Even though I cannot kick as in karate, it is similar to karate. So, I would be OK." But the result was miserable. I took blows after blows. In a few minutes, my head started to "ring", and got knocked down. I also took a lot of body blows, and I was completely groggy. It was not even to be called a match since I closed my eyes even when his glove lightly passed in front of my eyes. This boxing practice was like a fight between an adult and a child. I covered my aching head and body, and thought, "If I did not know this type of fighting in addition to judo, I would not be able to defend myself from a danger." After this I asked him to give me boxing instruction twice a week. But the boxing "instruction" was a rough one in which I got only beaten up in a one-sided manner. One day, the state of taking so many blows really got to my nerves that I blocked his right punch with my left arm, lifted him up for Ippon-seoi and tried to slam him onto the mat. He then said "No Judo, no, no!" with a pathetic tone of voice. So, I took him down safely to the floor. This practice lasted for 1 year. Thanks to my effort, I became able to go 40-60 with him. Of course, I was the 40. "

    (source: http://judoinfo.com/kimura4.htm )
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