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  1. Yoj is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/13/2011 4:08pm


     Style: Aikijujutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And thats how aikido gets ruined....

    Nowhere is uke trying to protect his centre or posture, thus making tori extend his technique and look for another opening in ukes posture in order to retain control and finish with something, its contrived and predetermined and tori has effectively from that, no real skill, just is good at choreography. Uke on the other hand is learning to fail, genius, why isn't he using this training to learn how not to fail, how to maintain his posture, and try and reverse the uke/tori roles.

    Yeah its a demo, blah blah blah, but all too often this is what happens, aikido so often isnt trained, it's practised, polished, and made to look nice.
  2. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2011 5:45pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Regarding skirts, if some of the aikibabes I've seen had been wearing mini skirts I'd have probably quit Judo and done aikikai.
    I think this should be the standard uniforms for men and women:
  3. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 12:37am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoj View Post
    And thats how aikido gets ruined....

    Nowhere is uke trying to protect his centre or posture, thus making tori extend his technique and look for another opening in ukes posture in order to retain control and finish with something, its contrived and predetermined and tori has effectively from that, no real skill, just is good at choreography. Uke on the other hand is learning to fail, genius, why isn't he using this training to learn how not to fail, how to maintain his posture, and try and reverse the uke/tori roles.

    Yeah its a demo, blah blah blah, but all too often this is what happens, aikido so often isnt trained, it's practised, polished, and made to look nice.
    I don't even think you can say "Yeah it's a demo" because so many make this their training. I trained with a 2nd kyu once, who acted like I reinvented sankyo, and irimi nage. He was havng trouble with irimi nage, because he was getting too extended and losing connection with me. It took many repetitions just for me to get him to slow down to where he could begin to fix his technique. He had gotten so used to the other uke just going along for the ride. I gave up turn after turn to allow him to fix his technique. He couldn't figure out why when I was nage I had so much control over him. I finally showed him how if you take the Aiki principle out, you basically are trying to wrench uke's head off his shoulders to get him down. Way more effective than his twirl around and try to gently clothes line me.
  4. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 12:56am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    I don't even think you can say "Yeah it's a demo" because so many make this their training. I trained with a 2nd kyu once, who acted like I reinvented sankyo, and irimi nage. He was havng trouble with irimi nage, because he was getting too extended and losing connection with me. It took many repetitions just for me to get him to slow down to where he could begin to fix his technique. He had gotten so used to the other uke just going along for the ride. I gave up turn after turn to allow him to fix his technique. He couldn't figure out why when I was nage I had so much control over him. I finally showed him how if you take the Aiki principle out, you basically are trying to wrench uke's head off his shoulders to get him down. Way more effective than his twirl around and try to gently clothes line me.
    Osoto Gari in Judo is basically Irimi Nage. If you do it well enough, you don't need to reap the leg, it's kind of like insurance.

    However, against someone who is resisting, hitting the leg becomes a necessity. I can do Osoto Gari on a non resistant uke without cutting the leg. But in randori maybe to a white belt, if I'm lucky.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 1:33am


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Osoto Gari in Judo is basically Irimi Nage. If you do it well enough, you don't need to reap the leg, it's kind of like insurance.

    However, against someone who is resisting, hitting the leg becomes a necessity. I can do Osoto Gari on a non resistant uke without cutting the leg. But in randori maybe to a white belt, if I'm lucky.
    What I do, is once I have uke in close and I am stepping around, if he starts to resist or pull back I kind of allow my leading arm to fold in enveloping his head and neck in sort of a clinch fashion. From there, once I change direction utilizing my hips and center, his choices are neck injury or take the fall.

    I believe in Aikido, and Rock Ape can correct me if I am wrong, this is what I had been told by two different sensei long ago, the reason we don't sweep or "cut" the leg in irimi nage, is because one it requires force against force, and two it may leave your leg in a vulnerable position if uke falls a certain way. Since you can never predetermine how some one may react, we don't sweep the leg out. I am definitely not above doing it if I had to. There are a few different ways I have been taught to finish irmi nage. Some are definitely more realistic than others. I'm finding lately, I am liking more of a smothering approach to some techniques. Kind of hides the Aikido and is easier to bail to another method if need be. This is probably due to training with MMAers and wrestlers more in my free time.

    It's kind of funny how sloppy Aikido seems to work for me more often than not. Part of the reason I train so hard at it, is to get it to work clean. If I can't, I can't but in the process will take with me what works for me.
  6. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 2:02am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    What I do, is once I have uke in close and I am stepping around, if he starts to resist or pull back I kind of allow my leading arm to fold in enveloping his head and neck in sort of a clinch fashion. From there, once I change direction utilizing my hips and center, his choices are neck injury or take the fall.
    Controlling the head is a large part of Osoto Gari. The clothesline works well for fighting, but we can't really do it in normal practice. Proper use of the jacket will work, hand under chin or on the throat.

    If you can control someone well enough to lead them around like in Aikido, throwing them shouldn't be that big a deal. The judo method can be more direct or work off any reaction of uke to his rear.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    I believe in Aikido, and Rock Ape can correct me if I am wrong, this is what I had been told by two different sensei long ago, the reason we don't sweep or "cut" the leg in irimi nage, is because one it requires force against force, and two it may leave your leg in a vulnerable position if uke falls a certain way. Since you can never predetermine how some one may react, we don't sweep the leg out. I am definitely not above doing it if I had to. There are a few different ways I have been taught to finish irmi nage. Some are definitely more realistic than others. I'm finding lately, I am liking more of a smothering approach to some techniques. Kind of hides the Aikido and is easier to bail to another method if need be. This is probably due to training with MMAers and wrestlers more in my free time.
    I'd say you hit the leg if needed. I rarely get tangled up in Osoto Gari, but anything is possible. If you have them clotheslined, then just kind of running past works pretty well.

    Training with anyone who actually knows how to fight back will do that for you.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 2:31am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I find a common problem with irimi nage, is just too much focus on the top half, for which i blame the cool look of the clothes-line element.

    IMO, For it to work, uke's hips really need to be ahead of his head before you commit to the throw. Or kuzushi of some kind at least. (Judo has the upper hand in this respect, because of randori. - technique is attempted after uke is made vulnerable.)
    In aikido classes, often uke is still upright at this point - or worse still, the circular draw has left them leaning forward into it.

    I was cured of that when partnered with a 120kg 6'2" bouncer. I attempted to overcome the added weight of his forward angle by clothes-lining him as hard as I could. I was upside-down a moment later, and he slammed the **** out of me.

    Now I use 3 methods for 3 situations.
    • In paired kata, I try to do it through tight neck control, as Aikironin appears to be describing.
    • in Aikido randori, where exaggerated attacks are in vogue, I make big circles to pull uke's hips through, by which time they are almost falling backwards anyway.
    • When people are resisting more (n00bs, or fiesty veterans), I keep my forearm vertical, drop my elbow into the hole where the clavicals join, and shomen strike down through the head/face.


    Like BKR says about the leg being insurance, I think the same applies to any of the wristlocks too. If you aren't already in a winning position by that stage, you should be concentrating on getting to one instead of trying to force a finishing move.
    Last edited by Ignorami; 10/14/2011 2:38am at .


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  8. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 3:11am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignorami View Post
    I find a common problem with irimi nage, is just too much focus on the top half, for which i blame the cool look of the clothes-line element.

    IMO, For it to work, uke's hips really need to be ahead of his head before you commit to the throw. Or kuzushi of some kind at least. (Judo has the upper hand in this respect, because of randori. - technique is attempted after uke is made vulnerable.)
    In aikido classes, often uke is still upright at this point - or worse still, the circular draw has left them leaning forward into it.
    Same thing happens with Osoto Gari in Judo, and with throws like Sukui Nage/Te Guruma, Ouchi Gari, Kouchi Gari, etc. and Ura Nage-almost any throw to the rear.

    I was cured of that when partnered with a 120kg 6'2" bouncer. I attempted to overcome the added weight of his forward angle by clothes-lining him as hard as I could. I was upside-down a moment later, and he slammed the **** out of me.
    Jeebus, that would do it for anyone!


    Now I use 3 methods for 3 situations.
    • In paired kata, I try to do it through tight neck control, as Aikironin appears to be describing.
    • in Aikido randori, where exaggerated attacks are in vogue, I make big circles to pull uke's hips through, by which time they are almost falling backwards anyway.
    • When people are resisting more (n00bs, or fiesty veterans), I keep my forearm vertical, drop my elbow into the hole where the clavicals join, and shomen strike down through the head/face.
    LOL, your last one sounds like a method of using the tsurite (lapel hand) in Judo. We also do the drive your fist (connected to lapel) under their chin trick, or hook under their chin with the crook of the lapel hand arm, or in extreme cases forearm under chin and pry up.

    You might experiment with side of chest to side of chest contact as well just for grins.



    Like BKR says about the leg being insurance, I think the same applies to any of the wristlocks too. If you aren't already in a winning position by that stage, you should be concentrating on getting to one instead of trying to force a finishing move.
    Yes, it's all about adjusting as the situation develops rather than imagining one finishing move is going to end it all right away.

    See, Judo and aikido are not really that different!
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. RaiNnyX4 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 3:22am


     Style: Aikido/Judo/BJJ/Naginata

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think Irimi Nage and Osoto Gari are actually a very good comparison. From far away they look similar but the technique is quite different. And not in the sense of "Irimi Nage is just Osoto without the leg". They essentially "attack" in different directions (Osoto away from the body and Irimi Nage towards the body). The initial Kuzushi is similar however, as you're moving his weight onto the leg closest to you. I always think of the finish of Irimi Nage as more like Sukui Nage/Aiki Otoshi/Gedan Ate but with your body in a reverse position. You're essentially taking his hips out with your body and your hands are there to maintain Kuzushi.

    Shomen Ate is however, pretty much Kibisu Gaeshi without the hand reap. Instead, you keep hold of the wrist/arm or hip of the other guy.

  10. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 3:59am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaiNnyX4 View Post
    I don't think Irimi Nage and Osoto Gari are actually a very good comparison. From far away they look similar but the technique is quite different. And not in the sense of "Irimi Nage is just Osoto without the leg". They essentially "attack" in different directions (Osoto away from the body and Irimi Nage towards the body). The initial Kuzushi is similar however, as you're moving his weight onto the leg closest to you.

    That's a fine distinction, but then you apparently do aikido and Judo, I just do Judo. I was thinking mostly of kuzushi.

    I always think of the finish of Irimi Nage as more like Sukui Nage/Aiki Otoshi/Gedan Ate but with your body in a reverse position. You're essentially taking his hips out with your body and your hands are there to maintain Kuzushi.
    Hmm, I'd say you are putting his weight on both or one heels then moving the upper body to the rear, continuous kuzushi/control so he can't maneuver off his heels. Or in the case of a classic sukui nage/aiki otoshi, tori leg may aid in blocking uke leg a bit.

    In judo, subtle use of the hands and body starts an action reaction sequence that draws uke upper body forward or applies pressure as if to do so, then uke is taken backwards upon reacting to the rear. This applies in many throws to the rear in Judo.

    We are really talking about the same thing/principle as far as I can tell.

    Shomen Ate is however, pretty much Kibisu Gaeshi without the hand reap. Instead, you keep hold of the wrist/arm or hip of the other guy.
    Or Kouchi Gari as well, kuzushi is basically the same.

    Edit**LOL, look guys, the aikidoka even T-s up and throws perpendicular to the line between uke feet. That's a great example for all judoka to contemplate.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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