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  1. captainbirdseye is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2011 1:37pm


     Style: JJJ/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Kokyu-ryoku, Tai-sabaki and Ki-musubi.
    For the non-aikidoka, what are kokyu-rokyu and ki-musubi?
  2. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/13/2011 2:03pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

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    Kokyu-ryoku means "breath power". It is core strenght/stability coordinated with breath.

    Ki-musubi means "tying energy". It is like "go with the flow" but leading instead of reacting... difficult to explain.
  3. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/13/2011 2:33pm


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post

    IMO, alive training works as quality control: giving feedback about if someone have said fundamental skills. If in sparring/alive training the player is muscling techniques, losing contact-pressure on opponent, his timing is wrong and he is unable to flow he needs to go back to drilling/kata.
    this pretty much says it all for me.

    Also, once you see it that way, it becomes hard to see how alive training got lost in the first place. Surely someone (especially amongst the bunch they had) should have politely coughed, or put their hand up.

    I guess this is the downside to the whole Japanese etiquette element. Either people had to find a polite way to separate themselves (Nishio, Shioda, Saito), get ostracised (Tomiki), or go along with it.

    Actually, now I see those names, it doesn't sound so bad. Just a shame for me that the (modern) aikikai aerobic-philosophy route was the one that caught on here I guess.

    A question for a different thread, but I do wonder what lengths ki aikido must be having to go to now to differentiate themselves as the hippies.


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  4. Rock Ape is online now
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2011 3:46pm

    staff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've taken the liberty of culling the less serious ki bollcks to:

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=109748

    No offence intended but I don't want to wreck a semi-serious discussion.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  5. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/13/2011 3:53pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

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    At least he is not as fat as some others around.

    Ed.

    Didn't see the previous post. Move this one too.
  6. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/13/2011 4:14pm


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    No offence intended but I don't want to wreck a semi-serious discussion.
    cool beans. It's a promising thread, and I want to have a proper think about realjanuary's questions. Just haven't had time yet.


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  7. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 4:33am


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Of course. What do you think the main differences in execution are between both forms? How the original shomen uchi iriminage was performed/explained by the founder?
    There's quite a few differences.
    Timing: in the founder's book Budo tori initiates with shomenuchi, uke tries to block, tori continues with a technique (I'm not sure if it's that way for irimi-nage but definetly that way for ikkyo).
    This could be called "before." The other timings are "together" where tori is steals uke's rhythm by cutting up with them; "after" where tori is behind uke's rhythm (cartoon karate style, common in ura forms); "zombie" where you only cut up after the point where uke would have hit you .
    The Yoshinkan guys like the before rhythm, aikikai use the together rhythm as our standard form. Knowing more than one rhythm is useful, as they highlight different things. "Before" can foster positive attitude and willingness to engage, "together" needs ki-mesubi IF your partner is attacking sincerly.
    I'll post more latter about this.


    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    I think it depends on the individual.
    We need to have some standard to objectively judge "how to make aikido training better." Otherwise if the there are no shared goals the only meaningful question is "how can I make my training better" and see if we can do it in a way that allows us to continue to train with others that have different goals.


    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Of course, generating "kuzushi on contact" skills are built on other skills.
    In aikido and some other arts many people focus on these high level skills from the beginning. It is a luxury of the environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Kokyu-ryoku, Tai-sabaki and Ki-musubi.
    Suwariwaza kokyu ho can be alive sometimes. Asymmetric drills for tai-sabaki aren't too hard to set up. Ki-musubi stumps me a bit for alive drills in isolation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    IMO, alive training works as quality control: giving feedback about if someone have said fundamental skills. If in sparring/alive training the player is muscling techniques, losing contact-pressure on opponent, his timing is wrong and he is unable to flow he needs to go back to drilling/kata.
    This shows one way to fall down the rabbit hole. "If alive training is just a test, and kata is to improve, I'll be better if I just stick to kata." Which isn't what your saying, I'm just putting words in the mouths of those who don't do randori.
  8. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 7:21am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by realjanuary View Post
    Suwariwaza kokyu ho can be alive sometimes.
    Every time now when we do Suwariwaza - kokyu ho, we do it in 3 stages.

    To start off, everyone does it textbook form (or tries). Uke is either compliant, or resists in a static manner.

    After a couple of minutes, we do the same, but Uke resists. The grip is maintained, but uke will resist in a dynamic manner.

    A few mins later we switch, so there is no pre-determined Uke/Tori at all. Both partners hold a wrist each, and try to unbalance one-another.

    It's a long way from grappling, but you can see a light go on when visitors try it for the first time.


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  9. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 9:42am


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

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    Sounds pretty cool Ignorami, here's one more variation that might fit in with what you're doing.
    We call it nigiri ho aka suwariwaza tekubi tanren ho (old and new aikikai labels I think). It's the same set up as suwariwaza kokyu ho, except the person grabbing is tori.
    Like kokyu ho there are lots of variations, but the basic is to twist up so uke is floated on a double arm bar type feeling and then thrown to the side or straight back over there own feet (a little dangerous for both uke and tori).
  10. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2011 4:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally Posted by DCS
    Of course, generating "kuzushi on contact" skills are built on other skills.
    This is a whole higher level of Judo. It builds on the basic skills, and involves body positioning, movement, and gripping working together to ensure uke is at a disadvantage, or has to react and thus put himself behind the curve of the action reaction sequence.

    I can't claim to be very good at it, but it does exist.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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