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  1. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 4:08am


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Sukui Nage / Etymology

    So, one drawback of studying a kawaishian derived jujitsu style, as one of his innovations was to do away with the japanese naming of techniques, is relating the techniques I perform at training to what is discussed here on the forums by Judokas and other Japanese styles. This is usually not too much of an issue, as a bit of google-fu usually leads to the correct nomenclature.

    However, I was going to comment on a particular technique in a video posted on a YMAS thread (second video, 0:46) which seemed a very poor attempt at a technique I am quite fond of. In our system we call it a fourth hand throw, though it could be described as a single leg scoop throw.

    Attempting to find the Judo name for this throw (so people would know what the hell I was talking about) seemed to be a bit of a problem though. The closest I could get was Sukui Nage, which is a scoop throw.

    However, of the videos I saw of this throw it seemed at best to be what we call a double leg scoop:



    or something else completely:



    The Kodokan site seems to display four different types of Sukui Nage:

    http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/05sukuinage.html

    The way we do this is closest to the Kodokan Type 3, although we scoop just the further away leg and cradle the lower back, shifting weight back to the right foot (if you've stepped forward with the left) to swing tori up to eye level before throwing/dropping. Of course there are also atemi strikes to the solar plexis and kidneys as you are setting up for the throw. (We also do version where you grap the closest leg, which we call a reverse fourth hand throw).

    So how do you do Sukui Nage? And if there are so many variations to each throw, how do we know that we are all talking about the same thing?
  2. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 4:03pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    "Sukui" just means "scoop." You scoop uke up.
  3. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 4:08pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    What the Kodokan shows are the recognized Judo versions of Sukui Nage. It is a very old throw, from koryu jujutsu in Japan, although I'm sure other grappling traditions around the world have similar techniques. It's not called Sukui Nage in all the myriad japanese jujutsu traditions, but is basically the same throw. It's even in aikido.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 4:19pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Yes but it seems like a very broad term for what are usually very specific movements/throws. Ouchigari and koouchigari are both "inner leg reaps" but are deemed sufficiently different to have separate technical names. I would argue that there are far more diverse ways on which you could "scoop" someone, yet they are all lumped into one technique/technical name.
  5. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 4:27pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    What the Kodokan shows are the recognized Judo versions of Sukui Nage. It is a very old throw, from koryu jujutsu in Japan, although I'm sure other grappling traditions around the world have similar techniques. It's not called Sukui Nage in all the myriad japanese jujutsu traditions, but is basically the same throw. It's even in aikido.
    And that's where the etymology comes in. As I study a gendai jujitsu I have no idea what it was called in the ryu it was derived from. I am curious as to what it is called in other ryu and other styles (including aikido) but also curious as to how they are performed in the different styles/ryu. There seems to be a wide scope for variation and interpretation to this particular throw.
  6. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 5:49pm

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     Style: 柔道

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    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    So, one drawback of studying a kawaishian derived jujitsu style
    You mean Kawaishi Mikonosuke is the originator of the style you practise?

    If so, Kawaishi books on Judo (in French) are easily available.

    For instance, in "Ma Methode de Judo" sukui-nage is the Kodokan type 3 and this one (closer to Kodokan type 1)



    is named obi-otoshi.

    In Aikido is usually called aiki-otoshi and, iirc, this throw can also be found in european medieval-renaissance era wrestling manuals.
    Last edited by DCS; 10/07/2011 6:17pm at . Reason: link to book
  7. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2011 12:02am


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    I've got a copy of Mikonosuke's 'My method of Self-Defense', though he doesn't name the techniques in that. I guess I always assumed his 'My Method of Judo' was the same so never checked it out, I'll have to now!

    I did look at obi-otoshi as obe of out variations (the Kodokan type 1-ish) but it didn't quite fit what I was looking for. The one we do scoops both legs at the knees (instead of one hand grabbing the belt). I've also yet to see anywhere else lift our other version (the type 3-ish one) of the throw as high as we do, but that could be a safety thing....

    Interesting about the European wrestling thing, thanks also for the Aikido reference!
  8. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2011 3:45am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Obi Otoshi is a separate throw in Judo, because you grab the belt.

    You are really picking nits. In Judo, (in general) throws are named based on the primary principle involved, subdividing them up into particular variations isn't usually done. For Sukui Nage, the only common different name is Te Guruma.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2011 4:27pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Obi Otoshi is a separate throw in Judo, because you grab the belt.

    You are really picking nits. In Judo, (in general) throws are named based on the primary principle involved, subdividing them up into particular variations isn't usually done. For Sukui Nage, the only common different name is Te Guruma.
    I guess euphemistically I would call them nuances, but yes I suppose I am picking nits. However, I'm doing so purely out of interest and hopefully I'm not coming across as anything other than that. As I'm still essentially in the infancy of my MA journey I'm still fascinated by the small differences (and yes they are very small) between styles that could conceivably (even if unlikely) had a common progenitor (as in a singular ryu) as little as 120 years ago.

    But I was probably letting my enthusiasm get ahead of me and chasing a vast response to what is most likely a simple answer. I do have some good info that I can pursue now though so thanks for taking the time to entertain my curiosity.

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