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  1. kdawgious is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 9:19am


     Style: Shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It was a question of validity of the idea; I know what works for me and what doesn't, but who knows...maybe I was doing something wrong. Just trying to get a feel for what other people thought about it. I love Yahara Sensei's karate, but he puts a lot of emphasis in this kind of stuff, and was curious about other peoples' opinions. Thanks for your input!
  2. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 9:55am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the mistake people make is believing that hitting the makiwara = hitting people. I think it is totally valid for hitting the makiwara and I've done it that way but I think it is less effective for hitting people. This also comes from JKA kumite. Stop action sparring no matter how hard you hit or what gear you wear is unrealistic.
  3. Fish Of Doom is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 9:59am


     Style: Karate, mostly.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IMO there isn't that much difference between heel up and heel down (mobility aside), when the heel down is done RIGHT.
    kihon, which is ultimately what you do with a makiwara as well, isolates movement principles and presents them in an abstracted fashion because there's no opponent when you do them. keeping the heel down forces you to work with your core and hips in terms of alignment, not just pure power generation (note also that the straight punch is linear, so it will never be as powerful as a hook thrown by the same person, no matter if it's a mawashi zuki or a boxing hook, because pure rotation is more efficient with regards to how much effort is made just to move the body).

    even with the heel down, the push is still made through the ball of the foot, the difference being only in the angle of the ankle joint, because with a linear attack like a krotty straight tsuki, the increase in ROM can lead to either an overextension of the technique, or the breaking of the linear kinetic linking when one brings the calf muscles into play. the problem is people in i would say most krotty classes are not taught to compensate for this variation in structure, so their kihon work ends up not transferring optimally to applied movements when the heel is up, even if they punch well from a static position.

    krotty makiwara punching with the heel up:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufuJU...tailpage#t=38s
    Last edited by Fish Of Doom; 10/07/2011 10:00am at . Reason: oops
  4. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 11:07am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The very first punches he does is what I'm talking about. He pivots his back foot on the ball of the foot. That is a different mechanic and more akin to a cross than the heel down reverse punch.
  5. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 12:54pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fish Of Doom View Post
    even with the heel down, the push is still made through the ball of the foot, the difference being only in the angle of the ankle joint
    The way I learned is that you can pivot on the ball of the foot to get the correct alignment, but the heel down reverse punch is actually made by driving through the ground with the heel, not ball, of the foot. I think if you're gonna push through the ball of the foot you might as well have the heel up.


    the problem is people in i would say most krotty classes are not taught to compensate for this variation in structure, so their kihon work ends up not transferring optimally to applied movements when the heel is up, even if they punch well from a static position.
    I'd say that its a matter of alignment of the hip, knee and ankle. This should be the case with or without the heel down (I like the heel up). In choy li fut, the heel down was more common, but some people would keep their heel down but not pivot their foot enough when they'd spar. I think part of it is people trying to look like a stylized form and end up too low, and too wide, so their back foot ends up doing this:
  6. Fish Of Doom is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 1:39pm


     Style: Karate, mostly.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    The very first punches he does is what I'm talking about. He pivots his back foot on the ball of the foot. That is a different mechanic and more akin to a cross than the heel down reverse punch.
    reverse punches are not only thrown from a completely static position. that's just the very, very super-basic isolated reverse punch. again, the mechanics there are abstracted and isolated, but it's not what you actually use. when applied it's going to look more like a boxing cross if trained well, because there's not really that much difference. the alignment for a cross is the alignment for a cross, after all.
  7. Fish Of Doom is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 1:47pm


     Style: Karate, mostly.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    The way I learned is that you can pivot on the ball of the foot to get the correct alignment, but the heel down reverse punch is actually made by driving through the ground with the heel, not ball, of the foot. I think if you're gonna push through the ball of the foot you might as well have the heel up.
    i've never ever driven through the heel. everytime i try i end up locking out and damn near hyperextending my knee, to be honest. always moved through the balls of my feet in everything (except shotokan's kokutsu dachi, but i hate it with all my soul).

    I'd say that its a matter of alignment of the hip, knee and ankle. This should be the case with or without the heel down (I like the heel up). In choy li fut, the heel down was more common, but some people would keep their heel down but not pivot their foot enough when they'd spar. I think part of it is people trying to look like a stylized form and end up too low, and too wide, so their back foot ends up doing this:
    that pic is just silly. excessively long and narrow stance (even northern shaolin didn't have such a long front stance, and the edge of the foot appears to be coming off the ground.

    FWIW what the guy with whom i tested for shodan teaches is to drive through the inner edge of the big toe WHILE you pivot (so you end up pushing through the ball while still getting the right alignment). only downside is it gives you massive bunions :p. the trick there is, if you're pivoting and want to use the same kind of punch as with heel down, is, funnily enough, to NOT drop the heel, as that will bring a lot of the force you generate back down instead of into the target.
  8. kdawgious is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2011 8:25pm


     Style: Shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Even with the heel down, the pivot point on the foot is always the ball of the foot. At least that's how I was taught it. I've only seen on some very rare occasions where we ever really rotate on the heel...just seems silly and unbalanced.

    For kihon, the principle has always been pivot on the ball of the foot, but drive through the heel (like doing squats) to generate power. Some of the old school sensei even recommend that kind of foot position during kumite and shiai...not about to do that myself, they support the idea but watching them fight, they all have the heel up when making contact with tsuki.
  9. kdawgious is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2011 8:28pm


     Style: Shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=Fish Of Doom;2614181]i've never ever driven through the heel. everytime i try i end up locking out and damn near hyperextending my knee, to be honest. always moved through the balls of my feet in everything (except shotokan's kokutsu dachi, but i hate it with all my soul).

    The problem here is that the only way I can see one hyper-extending their knee is by trying to force the back foot to face full forward. I, physically, am unable to accomplish that using traditionally long and low Shotokan stances, but I've seen some of the Okinawan stylists doing that. Regardless, most shotokan people have a somewhat "flexible" back leg in zenkutsu dachi. Not locked out, and not exactly bent, just a straight leg. The way your leg is straight when you're standing up straight, if that makes sense.
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