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  1. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2011 5:21pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    If you want an explanation of the physical value of the tai chi form we should probably do that in a CMA subforum thread.
    I have about 5 years of studying tai chi under a good teacher, so I've got an idea of what the physical value of the form is, and I'd still contend that tai chi =/= yoga.

    You can stretch in tai chi forms, but it seems to me that it could be missing the forest for the trees while simultaneously giving a mediocre stretch compared to a proper stretching session. I don't know if its a universal, but as I learned it, tai chi is about walking a fine edge- not too much, not too little. One shouldn't sink too much that it disrupts the structure, or too little that its not involving the legs enough. It should be just the way its supposed to be (this contrasted with some of my kung fu training that overly exaggerated some things). While the middle of the road approach is good for some things, stretching doesn't seem like such a great one.

    FWIW I did Yang style, but I've trained with Chen style folks as well, and I know that they tend to stretch down more and get very low.


    At any rate, the kind of stretching fostered in tai chi forms is different than the type developed in yoga.
  2. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2011 5:23pm

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    How were you taught to perform 'snake creeps down' ?
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  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2011 5:29pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I have about 5 years of studying tai chi under a good teacher, so I've got an idea of what the physical value of the form is, and I'd still contend that tai chi =/= yoga.

    You can stretch in tai chi forms, but it seems to me that it could be missing the forest for the trees while simultaneously giving a mediocre stretch compared to a proper stretching session.
    You were taught differently.
  4. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2011 5:32pm

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    I'm sure we're all taught differently. I'm just trying to find out how he was taught that particular movement without it being a deep stretch.
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  5. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2011 5:58pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    How were you taught to perform 'snake creeps down' ?
    Feet are 2 lines apart instead of the usual 3, about as long as a bow stance. The back foot is pointed 45 degrees to the rear, and 45 to the front with the front foot. The back foot pivot (on the heel) allows the hips to open and sink. The lead hand is open, palm in, arm fairly extended. The rear hand points back like the rear foot, with the hand in a crane head position. The body shifts towards the back foot with the knees over the toes, and slowly shifts forward until the weight is on the front leg, moving into Golden Rooster or something else. As it moves forward, the body, guided by the lead arm, should go somewhat downward then upward, rather than straight across.

    The application of the hands is to grab and hook an arm for unbalancing. The back foot pivot can be used in push hands to do defensive arm drag type stuff against a player who just wants to push hard without considering good form. I also learned the move as a hook/unbalancing move with the back hand while coming in low with the lead hand between the legs to do a fireman's carry/kata garuma kind of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    I'm sure we're all taught differently. I'm just trying to find out how he was taught that particular movement without it being a deep stretch.
    I was taught it as a deep stretch, and my sifu had us do series of really-low snake-creeps-down as a push hands warm up to develop the ability to get low without leaning at the waist.

    However, having done yoga as well, I would still say that yoga is better for stretching and more importantly that tai chi and yoga aren't the same thing.
    Last edited by Permalost; 10/06/2011 6:30pm at .
  6. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2011 6:29pm

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     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I don't know if its a universal, but as I learned it, tai chi is about walking a fine edge- not too much, not too little.
    A thing to contemplate: one translation of taijiquan might be "great extremes boxing." Yes, not too much or too little, but via an understanding that a lot of one way or direction becomes its opposite.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2011 7:28pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    I'm sure we're all taught differently. I'm just trying to find out how he was taught that particular movement without it being a deep stretch.
    He never said that did he? You did. He is attacking the non-existent yoga vs. Tai Chi stretch argument no one raised.
  8. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2011 8:01pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    He never said that did he? You did. He is attacking the non-existent yoga vs. Tai Chi stretch argument no one raised.
    I kinda read parallels in these posts:
    So I ask her what would be the application for reaching that far back when performing Lu, she gives me this blank stare, "I just told you, it's for the stretch"

    me: "what do you mean stretch?"
    her: "you know, for the yoga? We have this great yoga class by where I work, you should come by and give it a try."
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    No really. You're supposed to practice applications with a partner, not waving your arms around in the middle of a park by yourself. That's just like a yoga routine, dork.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2011 8:14pm

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    The parallel I see is moving routines for stretching and then LOL@SRI for being offended. You turned this into one is better than the other when no one is near that in any post.

    I'll just chalk it up to different interpretations.
  10. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2011 3:34am

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     Style: Tai Chi

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    I asked because he said he avoided extremes, so I thought he meant he didn't do deep stretches in the form.

    I don't think Tai Chi is the same as yoga, but I think the best use of the hand form is for stretching, cooling down after more vigorous work and gently strengthening the legs and core, as opposed to treating it as a catalogue of applications.
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