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  1. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2011 3:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister View Post
    I should just remind myself not to look at uke all the time until it becomes second nature?
    Basically.

    Have you played some kind of team sport like football, handball, basketball or the like? It's the same. At some point you don't need to see the ball you're carrying to know where it is, you look at the game field. Uke is like the ball.

    On "harmony", "ki" and what Ueshiba had in mind... this is too complex. Focus in good physical technique and let channelling spirits for later. Good exorcisms are not cheap nor widely available.
  2. Rock Ape is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2011 4:06pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Focus in good physical technique and let channelling spirits for later. Good exorcisms are not cheap nor widely available.
    Priceless.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  3. Mister is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2011 4:16pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Basically.

    Have you played some kind of team sport like football, handball, basketball or the like? It's the same. At some point you don't need to see the ball you're carrying to know where it is, you look at the game field. Uke is like the ball.

    On "harmony", "ki" and what Ueshiba had in mind... this is too complex. Focus in good physical technique and let channelling spirits for later. Good exorcisms are not cheap nor widely available.
    I've played football (the actual football, the American one is people carrying something that isn't a BALL in their HANDS lol) it's my country's national sport.

    I understand what you mean thanks for the advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon View Post
    I rather liked it, so thank you for posting.

    There is some similarity in Trad JJ, when starting 2nd Dan I was required to kneel and practise 11 sets of Wrist locks on both sides and I had to move to apply the lock. As an ex-footballer (all through childhood and youth) i have rather large Calf muscles and it bloody killed me. Fortunately the rules relaxed and all students could do them Standing (aaahhhhh...).

    I liked the Progression from the kneeling and the circular movement and contra-indicative to execute Throws. I also liked the Body Movement that informed the Technique (Tai Sabaki as has been correctly said).

    Strking IS part of our Syllabus however, to reiterate, I enjoyed your vid post and provides food for thought (which means I'm going to steal part so it). ; )

    cheers
    Thank you for watching, and please steal all you want.

    I'd love to see some Traditional Jujutsu as well, I tend to lean towards more combative sides of martial arts, the reason I got into Aikido was the fact that there was nothing else, I looked for Aikijujutsu and Jujutsu but didn't find anything that was Traditional.

    Styles that don't have championships are really just not popular in my country, I was lucky to even find Aikido.
  4. Mister is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2011 4:34pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    Ok, this could be such a diverse conversation which, I've often seen ending up between the extremes of logical to down right ridiculous in nature - depending upon who you talk too on the subject.

    I'll give you my perspective on what "harmony" and "ki" means to me. You can take that for what it's worth.

    The ideological doctrine of aikido is that of "Resolving conflict without violence" ... but, who's defining what constitutes as "violence" and to what level?

    Given that Ueshiba is the founder of the discipline, it's a good starting point to attribute him as the person defining the statement, however; his attitude toward violence changed as he aged thus we must discard any of his exploits prior to the conclusion of WWII and, the official creation of Aikido as a recognised martial art. Thus, his definition must be based on his desire to use Aikido as a means of reconciliation so, almost no level of violence at all.

    The Paradox of this is that we're studying a martial tradition which does not advocate "fighting" because by definition, we're engaging in the "violence" which aikido wishes to resolve. In essence we strive to be in a constant state of harmony with ourselves and our surroundings - remember this is an ideological doctrine but we don't exist in an ideal world.

    The reality is however, when faced with a physical conflict our training should, at the very least, give us the ability to position ourselves in the right place at the right time to perform a given technique. - AWASE -

    In doing so we're part way into removing our opponent's ability to carry out his intentions of doing us harm, we're beginning (ideologically speaking) to restore the balance of "harmony" between you and your opponent. We achieve this by maintaining some form of physical contact - MUSUBI - and through this we effectively disrupt that individual's ability to maintain their normal posture - KUZUSHI -

    Whilst doing all of that we're utilising - KOKYU - which is our ability to captitilise on our respiratory function to control not only ourselves but, to add demonstrably noticeable power into our techniques because we're involving our entire body (internally and externally)

    Our determination and courage during confrontations is driven from within our spirit, - KI - Not the mystical, religious bullshit often associated with the term, but the tenacity of our character to get the job done.
    I think you're right about the paradox of studying a martial tradition that involves no violence and I think the same. Some things I just plain disagree with about Aikido and the way it is generally practiced

    I understand what you mean in your definition of harmony and ki, it's simple and it makes good sense (as opposed to drawing power from the earth and striking my opponents down, often the explanations I get are vague and complicated... and while I nod back to the person giving them I truly don't understand anything of what they're saying).

    Thanks for taking the time to explain, it's a shame you don't do Aikido anymore I think people can benefit from your knowledge.
  5. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2011 11:28pm


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister View Post
    I'll be honest with you I don't understand what "Harmony" or "Ki" means, I mean in theory it's all fine and makes sense but in practice I don't know how to use that.

    I always thought Ikkyo was a tricky technique it looks easy but damn...

    Good advice, yes I must work on my Ikkyo further, thanks!

    I was worried about Irimi Nage, I think it's the hardest technique in the curriculum because you must keep uke close at all times and one mistake uke can face you and take you down (we counter each other's techniques sometimes in practice and take advantage of openings, all in good spirit ofcourse), does anyone have anything to say about it?

    I'd say I've been taken down in Irimi Nage more than I've been in anything else. (Many many times)
    I wouldn't worry about harmony and Ki at this time. You have so much more, tangible, aspects to occupy your training. I don't plan on actively working on Ki till I'm old and retired and have all day to sit in a cave and meditate for weeks at a time.

    On Irimi Nage. I have been told in the past, O'Sensei spent twenty years developing the technique. I have never anyone actually call it this but, apparently, it is known as the twenty year throw, because of this. Closeness is paramount in Irimi Nage.

    Already mentioned, has been hamni and footwork. This is probably a good starting point. When I get the opportunity to lead classes, I try to emphasize proper hamni and foot work. I find, attention to proper hamni, can fix some foot work issues. A problem I have noticed with Irmi Nage gone wrong, is taking too many steps or over rotating your turn. Staying in a proper hamni, and moving by tenkan and pivoting, helps to reign in excessive movement.

    Next, is closeness. Irimi nage is also difficult, because you and uke are moving at two different speeds, and need to come together at the right time, so you can throw uke. I don't know if you have ever shot a rifle or shot gun. If you have, you want to place uke's head, in the pocket of your shoulder, like it was the butt of a rifle. Form here, as you turn, you naturally turn or torque uke's neck. if you turn the opposite direction, the tension goes the other way and you can pull him down with out the classic clothes line looking movement with your other arm which should be extended. Step behind and across uke's center and he falls. None of this is possible if he isn't close to you.

    When you enter, try to extend your connecting arm, to create the pocket for his head. You can cut straight down, to draw him in, but keep the arm extended and allow it to raise back up to give his head a place to go. Step in and behind uke and press his head into the pocket. Maintain the extension of the connecting arm, don't drop it or pull uke's arm with it. Now pivot from center and drop your center as you turn. Depending on how much momentum uke has, you may want to keep turning by tenkan movements. Since you are the center of the circle and uke is on the outside you have less distance to cover than uke, and since you have his head and neck torqued somewhat, he has to move faster than you. You will be leading him by his head now. As his feet catch up to his head, he naturally will rise. At that point, you turn your center back the other direction maintaining the grasp and connection with his head. At the same time, you slightly raise and roll over the connecting arm which allows your shoulder to torque the head and neck a little more. It is like a 50/50 split between your grasping hand pulling back with your center turn, and your connecting arm spiraling and reversing its course. Add to this a final step across and behind uke's center, and there should be no way he should still be standing, and he should never had, had an opportunity to throw you.

    Try to avoid, pulling uke's arm to lead him around, or dropping your extended arm. What this does, is give uke some place to go other than staying connected to you. The end result is not a clothes line move. You don't need the big wind up at the end. If you want more oomph to your throw, achieve it through turning your hips and dropping your center at the end rather than trying to throw uke down with your arms.
  6. Aikironin21 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2011 11:49pm


     Style: Aikido, Kajukembo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    Ok, this could be such a diverse conversation which, I've often seen ending up between the extremes of logical to down right ridiculous in nature - depending upon who you talk too on the subject.

    I'll give you my perspective on what "harmony" and "ki" means to me. You can take that for what it's worth.

    The ideological doctrine of aikido is that of "Resolving conflict without violence" ... but, who's defining what constitutes as "violence" and to what level?

    Given that Ueshiba is the founder of the discipline, it's a good starting point to attribute him as the person defining the statement, however; his attitude toward violence changed as he aged thus we must discard any of his exploits prior to the conclusion of WWII and, the official creation of Aikido as a recognised martial art. Thus, his definition must be based on his desire to use Aikido as a means of reconciliation so, almost no level of violence at all.

    The Paradox of this is that we're studying a martial tradition which does not advocate "fighting" because by definition, we're engaging in the "violence" which aikido wishes to resolve. In essence we strive to be in a constant state of harmony with ourselves and our surroundings - remember this is an ideological doctrine but we don't exist in an ideal world.

    The reality is however, when faced with a physical conflict our training should, at the very least, give us the ability to position ourselves in the right place at the right time to perform a given technique. - AWASE -

    In doing so we're part way into removing our opponent's ability to carry out his intentions of doing us harm, we're beginning (ideologically speaking) to restore the balance of "harmony" between you and your opponent. We achieve this by maintaining some form of physical contact - MUSUBI - and through this we effectively disrupt that individual's ability to maintain their normal posture - KUZUSHI -

    Whilst doing all of that we're utilising - KOKYU - which is our ability to captitilise on our respiratory function to control not only ourselves but, to add demonstrably noticeable power into our techniques because we're involving our entire body (internally and externally)

    Our determination and courage during confrontations is driven from within our spirit, - KI - Not the mystical, religious bullshit often associated with the term, but the tenacity of our character to get the job done.
    I like this! I think I'm going to print this up and hang it in my home dojo!
  7. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2011 12:47am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's all been covered really, but I may be able to offer a suggestion regarding your leaning forwards for shorter uke's

    As a tall person myself (in my case, very tall), I have adopted a method which I'm finding holds my posture better than leaning, and keeps me more mobile than bending my knees down low.

    As a tall Nage, it feels like I want to be lifting uke up to my height to make things easier. What I try to do initially is the opposite. Aim to drop uke down a bit, in a small sharp movement Then as they recover themselves, draw them back up at the same time. That way, there are two of you lifting him to his toes. It genrates a kind of bouncing sensation that finishes with uke (temporarily) being a bit higher, and feeling a lot higher.

    Add that to any dynamic horizontal movement you are both making, and it makes kuzushi much easier too, as you are breaking the posture of someone who is now much less grounded.

    Well done for posting the vid here, especially after the **** you got for your first few Bullshido posts. A brave move, and (partly also thanks to iron fist moderating) one that is resulting in the first serious Aiki conversation here in ages.
    Last edited by Ignorami; 10/04/2011 1:05am at .


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  8. Rock Ape is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2011 4:12am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignorami View Post
    ..//.. and (partly also thanks to iron fist moderating) one that is resulting in the first serious Aiki conversation here in ages.
    And may that continue mate.

    YMAS is the place where the "Aikidon't" discussions take place, if I see that **** in this forum I'll take action on it.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to turn this place into MAP's angrier big brother but, people who study or are interested in aiki or aikido as a discipline should be able to discuss it without the bullshit posts from other members which are common elsewhere on the site's forums. That's partly why the TMA forums were created in the first place.

    Dave
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  9. Rock Ape is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2011 4:22am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aikironin21 View Post
    I like this! I think I'm going to print this up and hang it in my home dojo!
    LOL.. I'm full of that stuff mate [no pun intended] I've always looked upon aikido with a very matter of fact attitude. I don't and never have subscribed to the hero worship associated with Ueshiba or, his personal doctrine which he integrated into aikido.

    That's not to say I don't know or [in part] understand what Ueshiba was saying, merely that I'd rather associate the physical practice of the discipline with far less mumbo-jumbo. Everything we do in aikido can be fully explained without mystic bullshit and, what validates my personal attitude toward this stuff, is that I've had a number of students train with me from mudansha to yudansha who are as well rounded in both their physical abilities as they are in their historical/theoretical knowledge of aikido. And none of them beleive in chi balls, or that Ueshiba could dodge bullets yada yada yada.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  10. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2011 6:34am

    Join us... or die
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    Everything we do in aikido can be fully explained without mystic bullshit
    But, but, but.... if you explain aikido with biomechanics and combat psychology that would make aikido like any other form of ju jutsu. That's not what the aikido niche market wants.
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