If you could train but don't train, you're not a black belt....

**gregaquaman** · Posted On: 9/30/2011 12:31am

so rank and ability do not allways go hand in hand?

I must admit though I have not issue with matrial artists not being very good. Some of us do it for the social outlet.

**kitkatninja** · Posted On: 9/30/2011 3:02am

Originally Posted by progressivetkd

...Personally I almost never tell people that I do martial arts without being specifically asked about it...

Same here, however "If you could train but don't train, you're not a black belt...." I don't agree with (unless there is a by-law or by-rule of the association that states if you leave or don't train for X amount you lose your black belt).

Being a black belt doesn't mean that you're a supreme fighter that can take on 20 armed guys and come out clean, it just means that:

1. You've passed what was asked for the grading at the level and
2. That really you're only at the start of the Martial arts journey.

Added to that... Standards and techniques are different across the arts, associations, clubs, etc... I've seen the younger adults (so not a child BB) that can physically do what is required, but mentally (what I would say) is no-where near black belt level who got his @rse handed to him by a guy who had a long break (for whatever reason, didn't ask). I've seen people who have gained their black belts and do train and wonder how on earth did they get that?

Passing a Junior black belt off as an full (adult) black belt is different. Unless you meet the requirements for the full black belt and get awarded it, then you aren't one.

Originally Posted by It is Fake

...Again for me it is about arrogance and context...

This I agree with.

**cualltaigh** · Posted On: 9/30/2011 3:15am

Originally Posted by kitkatninja

Passing a Junior black belt off as an full (adult) black belt is different. Unless you meet the requirements for the full black belt and get awarded it, then you aren't one.

It's for this reason we don't have 'junior' black belts in my dojo. Irrespective of age, sex or any other determinant, a black belt denotes a specific level of proficiency and ability against specific criteria, no compromises.

**Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs** · Posted On: 9/30/2011 4:24am

Why is this in the KMA forum?
OP, rant threads belong in YMAS

A shodan/chodan is a rank for life and just a snapshot that on the moment that you earned it, you had the abilities to pass the requirements needed by your federation to obtain that rank.
Your abilities may go away over the years do to not training, just getting older or injuries.

So what rank should you wear when you restart in your art?

A white belt, doesn't seem fair to the really white belts, because even if your skills have deminished, you will start to "recall" techniques after some moderate training. Which can upset/demotivate the real noobs, because in their eyes it will look like they are standing still, while you make leaps.

Retest by your current instructor? Kyu/kup ranks are given in the club, not by the federation. So you would be at the"mercy" of your instructor, in combination with contracts given in the U.S. Martial Art scene and the averige ego of professional M.A. teachers (especially in the KMAs), you would end up with a white or yellow belt.

At my old club a returning black belt (same style, different club) wears his blackbelt AND a white belt, so everyone can see that he/she isn't "up to date", but that you still should be on your guard.

**progressivetkd** · Posted On: 9/30/2011 4:39am

I personally do not think black belt is a standard set in stone - it depends on your school, your association and what potential you have as a person. However, if you reach that potential and then stop training, you're not at that potential and you can't claim it. I know the mechanics of a really powerful turning kick and I could explain it but If I took a year off I would not be able to perform it. Maybe I would know what a black belt knows but I would not be one. That's not to say I am back to square 1 (or that an instructor should put you back to white belt). Maybe after a month or so I would be back to an appreciable standard but no training, no rank. I'd even go further and say if you could train but don't train, you're not a martial artist.

So I'm not saying that skill = rank. It's not an exact equation but if you go way below the level you have reached, you can't swan around with the belt you can no longer perform at the standard of.

Obviously, if you're injured or advanced in years, I don't blame you. You keep that rank because you hit your potential and you did all you can.

However, if I'm unable to train for 6 months, I would be reluctant to wear my black belt because an instructor I respect gave it to me and I wouldn't want to let them down (not that I would enforce this on others).

So basically, I agree with almost all points made above but I think the point stands.

Guess it is a general martial arts topic rather than KMA but my experiences are that everyone and their mother is saying, "I am a black belt in taekwondo" based on their childhood creche activities. Not really heard a lot of other martial arts mentioned in the same way.

UPDATE - Put it this way. No-one can take your certificate away from you but it's up to you whether you think you can still wear the belt.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 9/30/2011 9:27am

Originally Posted by gregaquaman

so rank and ability do not allways go hand in hand?

You fell into the OPs semantic trap. Retained ability and earning a Black Belt are two different things. Once upon a time, that Brown Belt may have been a decent or good practitioner. A decade later she should have had the gumption to swallow that ego and start over at white belt.

I've been at schools where someone was allowed to wear their Black Belt and started in the white belt class. The guy had no ego so, it didn't bother me at all. He also was able to give very good pointers even though his skills had eroded.

Still she is a non-practicing Brown Belt. No, there is no Martial Requirement that says you must say "was" or inform anyone that you don't practice.

For me, it is all about the attitude displayed by the Black Belt.

if you reach that potential and then stop training, you're not at that potential and you can't claim it.

Yes, you can there is no standard except what you made up for yourself.

**progressivetkd** · Posted On: 9/30/2011 12:20pm

there is no standard except what you made up for yourself

Isn't that the logic that leads to Ashida Kim? Just joking. :)

But seriously, that's kind of what I am saying. People should set themselves higher standards and have more respect for themselves. They hide behind belts like a get out of jail free card. It's like, I got this black belt way back so I am a credible martial artist - no, not true. Not if you spent the next six years doing nothing but sitting on your backside and eating doritos. I mean if the belt is a symbol of effort, what symbolizes those years?

People say "Way of Life" and it means "Way of Life", not "Way of three years, then took a break". If you don't train, it isn't a "Way of Life" and you're not a martial artist (though all respect to you if you become one again).

If you come back to train, great, welcome back but it will take you some time to get back to the level you were at when people felt you were good enough to get that grade - so the grade doesn't mean a whole lot.

The funny thing is that in martial arts without belt systems, if you can't demonstrate and you can't coach, you really aren't anything. The other side of it is if the instructor tells you not to wear the belt, it's his school and his prerogative. He might not want his students to look up to someone of a low standard.

There's a functional thing as well. Give me a black belt and I'll assume some things about him - like the fact that I can throw him on the ground quite hard during hosinsool that if I throw him to the side or the back that he'll breakfall and he won't mind if put pressure on his neck to throw knees or put a knee on his ribs when finishing. I'll assume he doesn't need many favors in sparring and that if I blitz him in the face straight off the bat he won't get disheartened. If this is all still true, then fine but if not, the belt isn't doing what Jigoro Kano meant it to do when he brought it in.

(should clarify that this only counts for black belts from some schools - I don't assume all TKD black belts can break fall)

**Kintanon** · Posted On: 9/30/2011 12:54pm

I'm a TKD black belt. The last time I actually did any TKD was in 2006. The last time I was competing at a high level was 2004.
I can't remember any of the forms except like, the white belt ones and small chunks of the 1st and 2nd degree BB ones. I can no longer kick above my head because I haven't focused on that kind of flexibility in years. But I can still do jump 360 side kicks and butterfly kicks and a 540 and ****.
You want me to NOT call myself a BB? **** you. I earned it.

**DubhGhaill** · Posted On: 9/30/2011 1:11pm

I once had a guy turn to me and say "You know, technically I'm still a Black Belt. I got it when I was a kid."

I said "Oh yeah? That's cool. What style?"

His response "Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido. They were having a two for one special."

**progressivetkd** · Posted On: 9/30/2011 6:37pm

I met a guy who I had trained with at the first tkd club I attended in the street and told him that my instructor (who had also been at that school) had graded to 5th degree. He says, oh yeah, I guess I'm pretty much there as well - 2nd degree taekwondo, 2nd degree K[Blank]-Do (the instructor changed from tkd to his own identical but differently named style and his grade was converted) and 1st degree wing chun. So basically 2+2+1 equals 5th dan, right? Errr....no.