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  1. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
    Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs's Avatar

    fist first Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 7:33pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    No, the ninja-to is complete fiction. The straight sword is the chokuto, which was straight and often double-edged. It eventually became curved and single-edged (not sure if the Mongolians are so directly responsible) and was called a tachi (among other things I'm sure, I'm not a sword historian). The tachi was basically a cavalry sword, worn edge down and slung on cords. Later on the katana appeared, worn edge-up and thrust through the belt. I have online acquaintances who are collectors and live in Japan and have been to all the museums, not once have they ever seen a "ninja-to" or anything like it. Here's such a testimonial from well-known polisher Keith Larman. As far as square tsuba, tsuba are an art form in themselves and come in all sorts of shapes.
    Yeah, I've been reading today about the chokuto (the single edge version).

    I knew that the Samurai swords were original straight(er), so I made the mistake to mix up the name "ninjato" and "chokuto" (which I hadn't heard of until today), because a "ninjato" is described as having a straight blade and I knew that the "ninjato" wasn't an exclusive "ninja" weapon, but just the standard sword of Samurai, which they used in normal battle as also in covert ops.
    So I thought that instead calling them "old style" katana or "old style" tachi when the new design became standard, these swords were called "ninjato", but I stand corrected.

    The changing of the curve is described to the event of the first Mongolians attempt to conquer Japan. It was mentioned briefly in the series "Storm from the East" (how the mind works that I remember that since it's about twenty years since I saw it), in a documentary about traditional sword making in modern Japan and several texts about sword making refer to that event as the reason why Japanese sword design started to change to become more curved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  2. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 9:19pm

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     Style: 

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  3. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/24/2011 8:03am


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, guys, late to the party...

    *Subscribe*

    Dear Future N00B contemplating necroing this thread: Please read the JMA Forum stickies first. They help. Then read through this thread completely, especially the link to eBudo about the complete absence of evidence for a historical ninjato. Then think long and hard about whether or not you really want to add to the thread.

    Thanks!
  4. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/24/2011 11:13am


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    I think the difference between tachi and katana wasn't always that clear cut, but that seems the basic idea.
    There's a lot of overlap in design - tachi were generally longer and more curved than katana, but not necessarily. Also some tachi were modified to be worn katana-style, changing the mounts and cut down if necessary. The way to tell which is which is to look at the tang - the mei (signature) is always on the outside of the blade as it was originally intended to be worn.
    What about the shorter (kodachi or wakizashi) or broken sword in a longer saya, is there indication of that existing historically? supposedly it gives a speed advantage when drawing.
    I've never heard of that. If you're doing that you are giving up a huge advantage in maai to your opponent. We have kata in kendo where we do kodachi vs tachi (tachi in the more general sense of long sword, not specific style) but I always imagined it to be of necessity - ie you've lost or broken your tachi so you are down to your kodachi.
  5. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/24/2011 12:55pm


     Style: Striking, grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the idea was for indoors use, where the shorter blade would be useful. but I'm skeptical about it, sounds very anecdotal.
  6. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/24/2011 2:25pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've heard the following about the shorter blade in the longer saya:

    1.) It's supposed to be faster to draw.
    2.) It's intended to throw off the opponent's distancing (ma-ai)
    3.) It is easier to manuever in confined spaces.

    Bujinkan sword training has a notoriously poor reputation on Bullshido. I have no sword training outside of Bujinkan, so I can't really compare. Nor do I thnk I can "defend" Booj sword training.

    I have a "shinobigatana" made to Hatsumi's description of the shorter, curved blade in a longer scabbard. It's a neat artifact. Having one has made me ponder the explanations I've been given.



    When I was young and impressionable, I heard a lot of stories about how old martial arts schools jealously guarded their secrets from each other. Of course, as I've trained, I've learned that good martial arts tend to have many similarities. There aren't that many real secrets. So I think the short sword in the long saya is intended to be an example of a martial arts "secret." It's a trick to throw off the opponent. But it's a definitely a short-lived trick, and that's why you need to keep it a secret. Because it's unorthodox it might give you an advantage early, but once the secret is known, any advantage quickly disappears.

    I think that's the lesson, whether or not the sword is of ancient vintage or not. I've never heard of an old sword like this being found. In fact, I strongly suspect it's another myth manufactured by Hatsumi. But I've got no proof either way.
  7. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    9/24/2011 8:50pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Bujinkan sword training has a notoriously poor reputation on Bullshido. I have no sword training outside of Bujinkan, so I can't really compare. Nor do I thnk I can "defend" Booj sword training.
    When my Hang Yuet Dan Do training is further along, we can have the first Bullshido bladed weapon throwdown.

    Wait..that might be illegal.
  8. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    :)

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2011 12:08am

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     Style: Ex-Tiger KF, ex-SanDa

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    When my Hang Yuet Dan Do training is further along, we can have the first Bullshido bladed weapon throwdown.

    Wait..that might be illegal.
    Kendo biatch. I'm down for one of those, although my ninjer training consists of laughing at a lot of ninja demos.

    I would have no problem w/ some kendo-play. Long arms, fast reflexes, no fear (just kidding, I'm a coward).
  9. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2011 12:32am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja View Post
    Kendo biatch. I'm down for one of those, although my ninjer training consists of laughing at a lot of ninja demos.

    I would have no problem w/ some kendo-play. Long arms, fast reflexes, no fear (just kidding, I'm a coward).
    Unless it's steel or at least aluminum, it's just LARPing.
  10. FinalLegion is online now
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2011 12:35am

    supporting member
     Style: Shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Unless it's steel or at least aluminum, it's just LARPing.
    As you said previously, there's the legal issue...I don't think you could get away with anything but LARPing from a legal standpoint.
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