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  1. #81

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    edit- unnecessary post
    Last edited by tim_stl; 9/30/2011 10:51am at .

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    You're probably correct, but I'd like to point there were two spanish fencing schools: the Verdadera Destreza (the "true skill") and the Esgrima Común ("Common/Ordinary Fencing"), similar to the italian school, less esoteric and widely practised, which is documented as far as late 15th century and it seems there was, in the century and a half both schools overlapped, influences between both schools.
    Italian influence was not just on the esgrima comun, but also on verdadera destreza.

    Additionally, there are also other styles of FMA that do not have the characteristics that many think of as defining FMA, such as numbering strikes in a pattern similar to European sabre methods.

    Tim

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    I don't find bans on native martial arts before 1764
    Where did you find these bans?


    Tim

  4. #84
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    The only alleged ban on FMA I've been able to find is the one supposedly made by Simón de Anda y Salazar in 1764.

    For instance, see here:

    http://www.fmapulse.com/content/fma-...really-ban-fma

    Also:

    “Buhat nuong 1569, ay marami na sa mga mamamayan sa Kapuluan ang nahikayat na sumailalim ng pananampalatayang Katoliko Romano, at halos nakaligtaan na nag larong kali o arnis sa paghahangad na tawagin sila’y mga “Filipino Ilustrado”. Ang kali na dating laro nila ay idinaraos lamang sa mga pambihinrang pagkakataon. At nang ipagbawal ni Don Simon de Anda y Slazar, nuong 1764, ang anumang uri ng laro ay patuluyang naligpit, maliban lamang sa mga taong namamayang Malaya sa bundok at samga malalayong nayon na hindi pa binyagan.” (page 12, par. 5)
    Excerpts from "Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis"
    Tagalog anyone?
    Last edited by DCS; 9/30/2011 3:54pm at .

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    As DdlR and others have pointed out Destreza was upper-crusty and there was very little opportunity for it to jump the culture gap due to the isolation of the Spanish aristocracy from the rank-and-file in the Philippines. A far more likely candidate for cross-cultural pollination would have been would have been from the mercenaries employed by the Spanish. Though a significant fraction of these mercenaries were Portuguese (ims) there would have been representatives from most of the major European sea-faring traditions and the styles they would have used, when formally trained at all, would have been in the cut-and-thrust systems, typically with military swords shorter than the Spanish Rapier.*

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk

    *Source citation: various discussions with Spanish Rapier stylists, most notably Maestro Martinez and others within his lineage, cut-and-thrust system practitioners from various non-Spanish lineages, and numerous written historical sources on the Spanish conquests.
    It seems the role of native filipinos in colonial army was more important than the one of western mercenaries.

    Filipinos in the Spanish Colonial Army during the Dutch Wars (1600-1648)

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    It seems the role of native filipinos in colonial army was more important than the one of western mercenaries.
    No doubt. However, we're making informed speculation on how western blade theories might have been transmitted to the native Filipinos. If there was such transmission (as many believe) it almost certainly wasn't via practitioners of Destreza but, instead, vastly more likely to come via interaction between indigenous blade practitioners and socially-low rank and file military used by the Spanish. The question, then becomes, "who were these rank and file" and "what blade arts would the have typically practiced."

    Like I said, it's an intriguing academic question.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk

  7. #87

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    Excellent paper - thanks for the link.

    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    No doubt. However, we're making informed speculation on how western blade theories might have been transmitted to the native Filipinos. If there was such transmission (as many believe) it almost certainly wasn't via practitioners of Destreza but, instead, vastly more likely to come via interaction between indigenous blade practitioners and socially-low rank and file military used by the Spanish. The question, then becomes, "who were these rank and file" and "what blade arts would the have typically practiced."
    It's also important not to presume that there was only one point of interaction. One being more likely doesn't preclude the possibility of another also occurring.

    Tim

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    The question, then becomes, "who were these rank and file" and "what blade arts would the have typically practiced."

    Like I said, it's an intriguing academic question.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    Low class spaniards, filipino and americans (as Philipines were dependant of Viceroyalty of New Spain) from spanish descent and some european and japanese mercenaries. Mostly.

    Destreza Comun (also called Destreza Vulgar), probably some Destreza Indiana (developed in the american colonies), using military swords (not with civilian rapiers, more apt for duelling or self defense).

    (

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Destreza Comun (also called Destreza Vulgar), probably some Destreza Indiana (developed in the american colonies), using military swords (not with civilian rapiers, more apt for duelling or self defense).
    Destreza indiana was verdadera destreza as practiced in the new world.


    Tim

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    It's also important not to presume that there was only one point of interaction. One being more likely doesn't preclude the possibility of another also occurring.
    True.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk

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