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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 4:26pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Do you have a copy of this? If so, I'm jealous. I've been thinking about getting one, but it's hard (even for me) to spend that much money on a book without seeing it.
    It's absolutely worth the money. The high price is because the target market was library collections rather than individual consumers.
  2. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 5:55pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Do you have a copy of this? If so, I'm jealous. I've been thinking about getting one, but it's hard (even for me) to spend that much money on a book without seeing it.
    Don't be jealous, I only have the 2001 edition.

    The FMA banning narrative I mentioned before is in the 2010 edition, and can be read in google preview:

    http://books.google.es/books?id=P-Nv...page&q&f=false

    On the spanish influence in FMA, other than terminology, I think the footwork of spanish destreza resembles the footwork used by filipino escrimadores.




    but, as I don't have experience in spanish fencing* nor in FMA, I'm speculating too.

    *I hope this is going to change sooner than later.
    Last edited by DCS; 9/29/2011 5:59pm at .
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 6:21pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Don't be jealous, I only have the 2001 edition.

    The FMA banning narrative I mentioned before is in the 2010 edition, and can be read in google preview
    The 2010 edition is much better, IMO.

    On the spanish influence in FMA, other than terminology, I think the footwork of spanish destreza resembles the footwork used by filipino escrimadores.

    but, as I don't have experience in spanish fencing* nor in FMA, I'm speculating too.
    The idea that Spanish rapier play, etc. had a technical influence on FMA became popularized during the 1970s and '80s, but at that time there really hadn't been much serious study of traditional Spanish fencing. People were aware that the Spanish fought with rapiers and daggers and kind of just assumed a direct connection from there.

    We now know that the Verdadera Destreza ("true skill") of rapier and dagger fence was an esoteric study, typically only available to wealthy Spanish aristocrats and perhaps unlikely to have filtered down to the village level in the Philippines. In practice I'd say it's more likely that the demonstrable Euro/Spanish influence on FMA (numbered lines of attack along the segno pattern, etc.) happened when large numbers of Filipino soldiers were trained in sabre fencing at Spanish-run military camps/schools during the 19th and early 20th centuries.
    Last edited by DdlR; 9/29/2011 6:43pm at .
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 6:27pm

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    I have a pdf of the 2001 edition which if you PM me, I'm willing to e-mail.
  5. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 6:35pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    In practice I'd say it's more likely that the demonstrable Euro/Spanish influence on FMA (numbered lines of attack along the segno pattern, etc.) happened when large number of Filipino soldiers were trained in sabre fencing at Spanish-run military camps/schools during the 19th and early 20th centuries.
    This is what I've heard before. I'd also say that the influence of the Spanish on FMA goes beyond bringing their own native fighting arts.
  6. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 6:45pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    We now know that the Destreza ("true skill") of rapier and dagger fence was an esoteric study, typically only available to wealthy Spanish aristocrats and perhaps unlikely to have filtered down to the village level in the Philippines. In practice I'd say it's more likely that the demonstrable Euro/Spanish influence on FMA (numbered lines of attack along the segno pattern, etc.) happened when large number of Filipino soldiers were trained in sabre fencing at Spanish-run military camps/schools during the 19th and early 20th centuries.
    You're probably correct, but I'd like to point there were two spanish fencing schools: the Verdadera Destreza (the "true skill") and the Esgrima Común ("Common/Ordinary Fencing"), similar to the italian school, less esoteric and widely practised, which is documented as far as late 15th century and it seems there was, in the century and a half both schools overlapped, influences between both schools.

    What surprises me, and this is the first time I read about that, is the spanish-run military camps in Philippines in early 20th century... for that means spaniards were instructing filipinos after Spanish-American War and well into Philippine–American War.
    Last edited by DCS; 9/29/2011 6:54pm at .
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 6:54pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    You're probably correct, but I'd like to point there were two spanish fencing schools: the Verdadera Destreza (the "true skill") and the Esgrima Común ("Common/Ordinary Fencing") which is documented as far as late 15th century and it seems there was, in the century and a half both schools overlapped, influences between both schools.
    IMO the segno pattern of numbered angles of attack is the historical "smoking gun". AFAIK it's unique to FMA in Asia, but it was standard practice in many European fencing schools, becoming all but ubiquitous during the 19th century.

    What surprises me, and this is the first time I read about that, is the spanish-run military camps in Philippines in early 20th century... for that means spaniards were instructing filipinos after Spanish-American war and well into Philippine–American War.
    Possibly just a matter of pragmatism; the Spanish military model offering the best available system for training large numbers of raw recruits, leading (again IMO) to the concept of the segno pattern being adapted into numerous regional FMA styles.
  8. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 7:05pm

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    This excellent discussion on the Spanish influence on FMA deserves it's own thread.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  9. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2011 7:23am


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    First let me caveat by saying that my personal interest in FMA and Spanish style fencing and their influence one upon another is relatively low (i.e.: I got no dog in this fight) but it is a subject the comes up comparatively frequently (similar to the discussions on the "true" origins of Savate or Capoeira) and is thus of academic curiosity to me.

    As DdlR and others have pointed out Destreza was upper-crusty and there was very little opportunity for it to jump the culture gap due to the isolation of the Spanish aristocracy from the rank-and-file in the Philippines. A far more likely candidate for cross-cultural pollination would have been would have been from the mercenaries employed by the Spanish. Though a significant fraction of these mercenaries were Portuguese (ims) there would have been representatives from most of the major European sea-faring traditions and the styles they would have used, when formally trained at all, would have been in the cut-and-thrust systems, typically with military swords shorter than the Spanish Rapier.*

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk

    *Source citation: various discussions with Spanish Rapier stylists, most notably Maestro Martinez and others within his lineage, cut-and-thrust system practitioners from various non-Spanish lineages, and numerous written historical sources on the Spanish conquests.
  10. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2011 10:39am


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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    There's traditions of stick-based dancing in the Philippines, and I've read that the iconic double-baston is likely to have made its way to FMA from stick dances in Luzon, not an ancient double long blade form (historically, the weapons would have been sword and dagger, or sword and shield, not two equal length swords).
    Where did you read this?


    Tim
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