origin of martial arts..

**lklawson** · Posted On: 9/29/2011 2:31pm

Originally Posted by Vieux Normand

I recall, back in my PE teaching days, when I had to sit in for a history teacher on a day when her class (about a quarter of the students black) had a guest presentation about the slave trade.

Once the presenter had come to the inevitable "you're all descended from kings and queens" part, a girl--the daughter of a west-African country's ambassador--stood up and basically called BS.

Her family, she continued, had made its fortune catching and selling people of neighbouring villages in raids, and would never have sold any captured nobility to either European or Arab slave-traders.

First, she said, they could get a lot more by ransoming off any captured nobles back to their own people.

Secondly, she said, slave-traders knew how unused to hard work pampered tribal royalty were and didn't want them. What they wanted were basically beasts-of-burden.

Needless to say, this didn't go over well, either with the guest or with those students who had been raised on the "kings-and-queens" thing. I told the African girl to make sure her 'driver' arrived promptly after school to take her back to her family's well-guarded residence in order to avert any 'difficulties' with the other black students.

:) Thanks. I enjoyed that.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**DdlR** · Posted On: 9/29/2011 2:35pm

Speculating about "origins" can be fun and even productive, but IMO it's important not to project too many cultural assumptions into the past, nor onto the practices of distinct societies. The idea of strict divisions between (for example) recreation (dance, exercise, etc.), ritual and combat is not universal.

A few years ago I studied some traditional Italian knife fighting that's probably only practiced in a few rural villages in Northern Italy, and it was at least as much dance/recreation as it was combat training, with strong ritualistic overtones. As it was explained to me, since it was impossible to fully replicate the reality of knife fighting as safe training among friends, the dance/game/fight fulfilled a social/recreational function while still teaching certain skills (general agility, "tricks", etc.) that would come in handy in a knife fight.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 9/29/2011 2:50pm

Originally Posted by DCS

Interestingly, the banning of FMA practise by the spaniards seems to have happened just after the Philippines were recovered from the english at the end of Seven Years War and Diego Silang revolt was defeated.

I don't find bans on native martial arts before 1764, and considering most of the colonial troops were native filipinos, not allowing them to train would have been counterproductive.

Interesting. I'm guessing that the English may have instilled anti-Spanish sentiments during the short time the English were in control, or at least got them to dislike being subjects to a European crown. At any rate, I wonder if an earlier ban would've been logistically possible for the Spanish. Before the Spanish, there wasn't a consolidated ruler and convincing every datu that their very old tradition of carrying weapons was no longer acceptable, especially while the Spanish were still becoming established in the Philippines and were subjects to a crown and country that was months away at best.

**DCS** · Posted On: 9/29/2011 3:27pm

Also, in Green & Svinth Martial Arts of the World, An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation, pp 306-310 points to the alleged banning of FMA by the spaniards having its origin in natives killing each other in duels and alcohol fueled parties more than in fear of uprisings, but no date is given.

**Sri Hanuman** · Posted On: 9/29/2011 3:31pm

In Russia, bear wrestling and intermittent bear loving, led to Sambo. This was usually accompanied by copious amounts of fermentes axel grease which doubled up as lube and alcohol. It was using this methodology that Russians were able to conquer upper Mongolia. Lower mongolia was too fucking cold, causing considerable shrinkage and turtling.

***edit... damn, just realized that this wasn't in YMAS, so I'm going to cull myself.

***** er... how the hell do you delete your posts with this new layout...

**Styygens** · Posted On: 9/29/2011 3:47pm

Is it just me, or has there been an awful lot of pure speculation in this thread, and nowhere near enough citation of credible sources?

**DdlR** · Posted On: 9/29/2011 3:51pm

Originally Posted by Styygens

Is it just me, or has there been an awful lot of pure speculation in this thread, and nowhere near enough citation of credible sources?

I think we're all taking for granted that this is a speculative subject.

**Styygens** · Posted On: 9/29/2011 3:51pm

Originally Posted by DdlR

I think we're all taking for granted that this is a speculative subject.

I hope so.

**Styygens** · Posted On: 9/29/2011 3:52pm

Originally Posted by DCS

Also, in Green & Svinth Martial Arts of the World, An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation, pp 306-310 points to the alleged banning of FMA by the spaniards having its origin in natives killing each other in duels and alcohol fueled parties more than in fear of uprisings, but no date is given.

Do you have a copy of this? If so, I'm jealous. I've been thinking about getting one, but it's hard (even for me) to spend that much money on a book without seeing it.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 9/29/2011 4:02pm

Originally Posted by Styygens

Is it just me, or has there been an awful lot of pure speculation in this thread, and nowhere near enough citation of credible sources?

I'm kinda guilty of this, but I think I've been spelling out pretty clearly where I'm speculating. I will also say that most of the reading I've done on FMAs is from before the Spanish occupation. I'm looking forward to learning more about the role the Spanish played in the history of the arts.