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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/19/2011 4:16pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by adey30491 View Post
    though nobody can deny the fact that the west contributed a lot to modern martial arts.. but i just saw a post saying alexander introduced martial arts in asia..but the fact says otherwise...
    I think you're referring to this text, which is the description blurb for the Western Martial Arts Forum:

    Some people believe the Chinese invented the Martial Arts. It's more likely that they were spread to Asia by Alexander the Great when he stuck phalanges all up in the continent's wet parts.

    Either way, only idiots would ignore the massive contribution the west has made to the science of hurting people.

    Boxing, Bartitsu, Fencing, Pankration, Wrestling, and more.
    You should be aware that the above text is not intended to be taken strictly seriously - it was a joke by Phrost, who created this forum.
  2. WayOfLife is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2011 9:20pm


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    I know this thread is virtually dead (hey that rhymed!!) but in case anyone was to check this, I'd like to make a comment.
    Someone commented that martial arts came from war, and mans understanding that some forms of hand to hand combat were more efficient than others. This is really only partially true, a good number of martial arts developed after a time when extensive hand to hand fighting techniques were needed, and a number of martial arts were developed as, well, an art. not really a pure fighting method. Capoeria developed from dance, taekwondo started as a military fightin art, but quickly became a more artsy style, and many indian martial arts are a combination of dance and fighting.
    Getting back to the original thread, martial arts have co evolved, they were a product of the early growth of human culture, and have copied and shared ideas (subcutaneously of course), and im sure theyll continue to evolve and change, maybe someday the martial arts we practice now will wont exist
  3. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2011 10:26pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Quote Originally Posted by WayOfLife View Post
    I know this thread is virtually dead (hey that rhymed!!) but in case anyone was to check this, I'd like to make a comment.
    Someone commented that martial arts came from war, and mans understanding that some forms of hand to hand combat were more efficient than others. This is really only partially true, a good number of martial arts developed after a time when extensive hand to hand fighting techniques were needed, and a number of martial arts were developed as, well, an art. not really a pure fighting method. Capoeria developed from dance, taekwondo started as a military fightin art, but quickly became a more artsy style, and many indian martial arts are a combination of dance and fighting.
    Getting back to the original thread, martial arts have co evolved, they were a product of the early growth of human culture, and have copied and shared ideas (subcutaneously of course), and im sure theyll continue to evolve and change, maybe someday the martial arts we practice now will wont exist
    1. Enslaved practitioners hid the martial art that is Capoeira in a dance. You have it backwards.

    2. Subcutaneously means under the dermis or skin layers. Did you mean sub-consciously?

    If you were trying to sound educated, you didn't succeed.
  4. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 7:59am


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    Quote Originally Posted by WayOfLife View Post
    I know this thread is virtually dead (hey that rhymed!!) but in case anyone was to check this, I'd like to make a comment.
    Someone commented that martial arts came from war, and mans understanding that some forms of hand to hand combat were more efficient than others. This is really only partially true, a good number of martial arts developed after a time when extensive hand to hand fighting techniques were needed, and a number of martial arts were developed as, well, an art. not really a pure fighting method.
    The three main branches of martial arts evolution seem to be (in no particular order).

    • Military
    • Civilian (self defense, dueling, etc.)
    • Sport and Exhibition


    There can, naturally, be overlap (firearms are used in all three) and it is pretty common for skills and weapons born in one to migrate to another, but frequently the lines of demarcation are, well, blurry at best.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  5. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 8:27am


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    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    1. Enslaved practitioners hid the martial art that is Capoeira in a dance. You have it backwards.
    Well, that is certainly the standard answer and the accepted internal lineage story.

    However, (just to be a contrarian) consider these points.

    First, it has always been a common training method for martial skills to embed them in games and dances. The simple children's game of "Tag" is sometimes speculated to have martial training roots. Short cudgel skills were transmitted in the dance called "Droghedy's March." The Scottish "Dirk Dance" is pretty self descriptive. The Egyptian stick fighting art Tahtib is transmitted as a dance. Some "native" American researchers believe that the "War Dance" was a vehicle designed to transmit fight skills while simultaneously hyping up the psychological state of the participants. Certain Russian/Cossack unarmed fight skills were taught as free-form dance. The Carpathian shepherd's ax (ciupaga/fokos/valaska) is still used in many of the folk dances. Then there's Ball de bastons and about a hundred other examples.

    Second, to be completely honest, I just can't see slave hunters, slave traders, and slave owners as being that mind numbingly dumb. Let's picture this exchange here. A bunch of slaves start singing, drumming rhythmically, and playing some simple instruments while two of them get up, face each other and begin to "dance." Said dance has the two participants punching, slapping, and kicking at each other, often acrobatically, and (depending on the type of Genga) barely missing each other or sometimes actually tagging each other. Participants rotate in and out, all to the tempo of the music. At some point, the slaves incorporate sticks, slave-chains and manacles, and farm knives into the dance. When the Overseer says, "what are you doing?" he receives an answer of "We're jus dance'n massah." One presumes this is accompanied with a sweep of the hand, index finger up, and a muttered "These are not the droids you're looking for. Move along." Yeah, I'm not buying it either. :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  6. The Juggernoob is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 8:39am


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    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    Well, that is certainly the standard answer and the accepted internal lineage story.

    However, (just to be a contrarian) consider these points.

    First, it has always been a common training method for martial skills to embed them in games and dances. The simple children's game of "Tag" is sometimes speculated to have martial training roots. Short cudgel skills were transmitted in the dance called "Droghedy's March." The Scottish "Dirk Dance" is pretty self descriptive. The Egyptian stick fighting art Tahtib is transmitted as a dance. Some "native" American researchers believe that the "War Dance" was a vehicle designed to transmit fight skills while simultaneously hyping up the psychological state of the participants. Certain Russian/Cossack unarmed fight skills were taught as free-form dance. The Carpathian shepherd's ax (ciupaga/fokos/valaska) is still used in many of the folk dances. Then there's Ball de bastons and about a hundred other examples.

    Second, to be completely honest, I just can't see slave hunters, slave traders, and slave owners as being that mind numbingly dumb. Let's picture this exchange here. A bunch of slaves start singing, drumming rhythmically, and playing some simple instruments while two of them get up, face each other and begin to "dance." Said dance has the two participants punching, slapping, and kicking at each other, often acrobatically, and (depending on the type of Genga) barely missing each other or sometimes actually tagging each other. Participants rotate in and out, all to the tempo of the music. At some point, the slaves incorporate sticks, slave-chains and manacles, and farm knives into the dance. When the Overseer says, "what are you doing?" he receives an answer of "We're jus dance'n massah." One presumes this is accompanied with a sweep of the hand, index finger up, and a muttered "These are not the droids you're looking for. Move along." Yeah, I'm not buying it either. :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk

    Numbers and weaponry allow that dumbness you're talking about to occur. It has happenend throughout history. The vietcong with their soviet era guns and lack of military organisation were deemed an easy target too. Slave revolts were more common and bloody than you might think.
  7. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 9:48am

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    In fact, Brutus (the alleged founder of Britain) and Corineus are considered "legendary" rather than historical since so much of their story is unsubstantiated. So for all we know, Corineus may have never existed and if he did, he may have been using Greek wrestling (since he was from Troy).
    Considering where Troy was located, this Corineus guy surely used Turkish wrestling.
  8. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 9:55am

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    Quote Originally Posted by doofaloofa View Post
    Is it not more reasonable to conjecture that men stolen from Africa, many of whom would have been experianced warriors...
    Indeed, if they'd instead been experienced warriors, nobody could have abducted them.

    That's the trouble with experiance. It cripples the fighting ability.
  9. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 10:46am


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Juggernoob View Post
    Numbers and weaponry allow that dumbness you're talking about to occur.
    No it didn't. It just means that said Overseer didn't care if the slaves were practicing a martial art, not that he was fooled into believing that they were "just dancing."


    Slave revolts were more common and bloody than you might think.
    It might be unwise to assume someone else doesn't already know something. Who doesn't know of Spartacus and Nat Turner? ;)

    Peace favor your sword (IH),
    Kirk
  10. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/29/2011 10:52am


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Indeed, if they'd instead been experienced warriors, nobody could have abducted them.
    IMS, there are any number of period documents which describe the black African slaving culture as including an important element of warrior tribes/cultures slave-raiding each other and slaving prisoners taken in battle.

    As much as it offends me to say it, the black/euro slaving culture of the 18th/19th Century was actually a step up in "humane treatment" compared to some earlier historic examples. If you liked your thumbs, big toes, and testicles, it was best not to be taken a slave by the Assyrians, ims. [insert here any and all caveats about how reprehensible the african/euro slave trade was]

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
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