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  1. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2011 1:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    Destreza indiana was verdadera destreza as practiced in the new world.


    Tim
    Lorenz de Rada citizised heavily the Destreza Indiana in "Experiencia del instrumento armigero espada: libro tercero" (p. 263) and in his "Defensa de la Verdadera Destreza" (pp 51-52) where he calls Diego Rodríguez de Guzmán, proponent of Destreza Indiana, fencing master by University of Bullshit.

    This is in early 18th century, and Phillipines were under spanish control since mid to late 16th century.
  2. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2011 2:23pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Lorenz de Rada citizised heavily the Destreza Indiana in "Experiencia del instrumento armigero espada: libro tercero" (p. 263) and in his "Defensa de la Verdadera Destreza" (pp 51-52) where he calls Diego Rodríguez de Guzmán, proponent of Destreza Indiana, fencing master by University of Bullshit.
    And Pacheco criticized Carranza in his later books. All that goes to show is that la verdadera destreza is not a rigid, monolithic entity. It evolved, and there were arguments.


    Tim
  3. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2011 9:29pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Considering where Troy was located, this Corineus guy surely used Turkish wrestling.
    Kinda difficult considering the Seljuk turks (who are actually different from the Ottoman turks currently living in modern-day Turkey) didn't appear in Asia Minor until two thousand years or so from the estimated Trojan war.
  4. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/06/2011 10:18am

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    Quote Originally Posted by odysseus_dallas View Post
    Kinda difficult considering the Seljuk turks (who are actually different from the Ottoman turks currently living in modern-day Turkey) didn't appear in Asia Minor until two thousand years or so from the estimated Trojan war.
    The geographic area of Asia Minor that Troy resides in and around (Anatolia, Ionia, etc.) were Greek/Mediterranean colonies formed by Indo-European settlers as early as 3000BC. In other words, not Asian. The Turks came much later, but it was not uncommon to find Greek culture/colonies in that part of Asia.

    As old as Troy actually is (rebuilt 8 times and the last as a Greek cultural center by the Roman Empire), and considering its strategic location I'll bet any wrestling arts that came from there were actually a good mix of European, Indian, and Asian styles once they came to Britain...what...3000-4000 years later?

    That's a lot of time to mix/match/evolve a wrestling style, it could have started as something like pankration, been embellished by Asian and Indian arts, and finally ended up looking like Cornish wrestling by the time it reached Britain in the 16th century (or if you believe the legends, the 12th). Troy was perfectly situated to soak up all those cultures, and constantly under the threat of war, they have plenty of opportunities to apply their training.

    So without designating the legendary sources of Cornish wrestling as "Trojan/Greek", maybe "Indo-European wrestling" is a better, more generic term?
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 12/06/2011 10:23am at .
  5. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/06/2011 10:48am

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    Quote Originally Posted by odysseus_dallas View Post
    Kinda difficult considering the Seljuk turks (who are actually different from the Ottoman turks currently living in modern-day Turkey) didn't appear in Asia Minor until two thousand years or so from the estimated Trojan war.
    So you took a post adressed to W. Rabbit seriously?
  6. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/06/2011 11:09am

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    So you took a post adressed to W. Rabbit seriously?
    Your reply made too much sense for him to leave alone I guess.

    Yess....Troy was technically in what is now Turkey but I knew you were probably joking...never pass up a good olive oil wrestling joke though, even if it's at the expense of history.
  7. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2011 5:08pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Hole View Post
    The geographic area of Asia Minor that Troy resides in and around (Anatolia, Ionia, etc.) were Greek/Mediterranean colonies formed by Indo-European settlers as early as 3000BC. In other words, not Asian. The Turks came much later, but it was not uncommon to find Greek culture/colonies in that part of Asia.

    As old as Troy actually is (rebuilt 8 times and the last as a Greek cultural center by the Roman Empire), and considering its strategic location I'll bet any wrestling arts that came from there were actually a good mix of European, Indian, and Asian styles once they came to Britain...what...3000-4000 years later?

    That's a lot of time to mix/match/evolve a wrestling style, it could have started as something like pankration, been embellished by Asian and Indian arts, and finally ended up looking like Cornish wrestling by the time it reached Britain in the 16th century (or if you believe the legends, the 12th). Troy was perfectly situated to soak up all those cultures, and constantly under the threat of war, they have plenty of opportunities to apply their training.

    So without designating the legendary sources of Cornish wrestling as "Trojan/Greek", maybe "Indo-European wrestling" is a better, more generic term?
    Thanks for presenting the history, saved me plenty of trouble. Greeks actually left Asia Minor in 1920's after a forced evacuation due to a botched invasion, and the remnants left Constantinople in 1960's.

    Besides, the Indo-European theory's been getting some flak lately (I'm talking serious flak, not Greeks-are-aliens-from-Sirius flak), so let's leave it nameless for the time being.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    So you took a post adressed to W. Rabbit seriously?
    I've been away from Bullshido too long to recognize subtle trolling.

    That, and there's always stupid people who might take what he said as historical fact. Take History Channel for example.
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