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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2011 7:22am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gosai View Post
    What would you say a good structure for an adult beginner is, Judoka?
    Well its not really a matter of 10 minutes on X, 23 minutes on Y etc...

    RE: Warm ups

    First thing to remember is that an adult beginner is usually over 30 or 40 works a day job and has some kind of family to support. Thus they come into the club at whatever time the session starts having got up at stupid o'clock, commuted/ taken kids to school, gone to work, possibly travelled about or done strenuous manual labour at work, driven or commuted home and then driven to the club.

    At that point you have a fairly tired person, the worst thing you can do with that tired person is subject them to a 20/30 minute cardio/ conditioning session.

    It will knacker them out, meaning they're in a sub optimal state for technique training - higher fatigue = greater loss of motor skills and are at a greater risk of injury during randori.

    Instead what you should do is a short bit of light exercise - few laps of the mat followed by dynamic and static stretching. I.e a proper warm up.

    Then go into sport specific drills - shrimps, ashi waza drills, tsugi ashi movements, sit throughs, kuzushi drills etc...

    This is more than sufficient to warm people up and get a sweat on. It also ensures that body control and fundamental motor skills are taught and practised. Crucial in late adult beginners many of whom have done little to no physical activity for years or decades and may never have to had to control their bodies in the way required for sports like Judo.

    RE: Technique training

    Technique training should be conducted in a progressive structured manner. Standing up talking for 3-5 minutes about a throw and bringing out a few key points then sending people off to do it whilst wandering around correcting. Is far from ideal to teach adults and shallows their learning curve.

    Instead you should show the throw as a complete action a couple of times.

    Then demonstrate the footwork solo without a partner, send them away and drill the footwork, move around and correct.

    Bring them back in show them the hand action solo without a partner, send them away and drill the hand action, move around and correct.

    Bring them back in show them the footwork and hand action together solo without a partner, send them away and drill the footwork and hand action together, move around and correct.

    Bring in a partner, have them practice footwork with an uke but without gripping, move around and correct.

    With a partner, have them practice the hand action with an uke, move around and correct.

    With a partner, have them practice the hand action and footwork with an uke, move around and correct.

    So basically you build the throw from the ground up in stages, progressively. This takes about 45 minutes to 1hr for just one throw.

    RE: Uchikomi and Nagekomi

    Drills should be performed on the move as soon as possible, but again moving drilling should be introduced progressively. Praticing forward pivoting without a partner, then with a partner without full grips, then with a partner gripped up, then bringing in an already practiced throw.

    RE: Randori
    For absolute beginners standing randori should be put off as long as possible. Concentration should be placed on movement and tai sabaki drilling and ukemi to ensure good fundamentals.

    Randori should be confined to groundwork until sufficient competency in ukemi and movement and tai sabaki is achieved.

    Randori should be strictly controlled, pairing with competent higher grades is better than pairing white belts together.

    Intensity should be rigorously enforced at 60% and the session stopped if people are spazzing and need to calm down.

    RE: Periodisation

    Its down right retarded for a beginner to turn up one week work on a Tai otoshi - O uchi combo, next week turn up and work on Uki waza, the week after work on Seoi nage for two weeks, then just do armlocks for 2 weeks.

    It makes no kind of pedagogical sense and leads to the 'technique tsunami' where beginners are constantly bombarded by new techniques and never have any time to get competent at any of them.

    Structure your lessons

    2-3 weeks on O uchi gari and Juji gatame

    Then 2-3 weeks on Tai otoshi and Juji gatame rolls

    Then 2-3 on O uchi gari into Tai otoshi and Tai otoshi into a Juji gatame roll.

    There you have a 6/9 week cycle where you progressively build competency, link skills and at the end of the cycle you can say....

    Ok, now you now how to do O uchi gari, Tai otoshi and Juji gatame.

    You know how to combine O uchi gari with Tai otoshi and how to transition from Tai otoshi into Juji gatame.

    The beginner has achieved something concrete and has a clear set of skills they have developed.

    The sticking point
    This is very hard to do with mixed ability classes where you have a scattering of 5 year 1st and 2nd kyus, some dan grades, 4 3rd kyus, 2 white belts, an up and coming junior etc...

    Quite simply, most Judo coaches are amateurs and although they may have coaching quals and decades of coaching behind them. Most struggle to structure and periodise properly because of the diverse and shifting nature of their classes. One week you may have 20 on the mat across the ability spectrum, next week 5 white belts, week after that 3 black belts and 4 competent 1st kyus.

    This fucks up your planning, forces you often to improv a class on the hoof to try and match the average ability. This is why you end up with a 2 week white belt in a session working on combinations from Uki otoshi to flying Juji gatame or other such craziness.
    Last edited by judoka_uk; 9/16/2011 7:26am at .
  2. Gosai is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2011 9:11am


     Style: Ju d'oh!

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Quite simply, most Judo coaches are amateurs and although they may have coaching quals and decades of coaching behind them. Most struggle to structure and periodise properly because of the diverse and shifting nature of their classes. One week you may have 20 on the mat across the ability spectrum, next week 5 white belts, week after that 3 black belts and 4 competent 1st kyus.
    Thanks Judoka, that was actually really informative. D'you teach any classes out of curiosity? (Purely academic in that curiosity. It's a bit out of my price range to fly out to the UK just to train with a guy on the internet, haha.)

    I think, at least, that the instructor where I'm planning on learning Judo has a decent chance to structure the glasses. If the other students are the usual crowd then that gives us another white belt besides me, a yellow, a blue, and a green and the teacher himself at Black.

    Unfortunately he's also the only one there in my size range. But it is fun since he's also in better shape and more skilled then me. Rolling with him was quite an experience.
  3. ty5 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2011 9:11am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Agree with all of that Judoka_uk, not that I have experienced that kind of training as an adult beginner but it sounds like it is exactly the sort of thing myself and the other white belts at the club have been wanting.

    Better to learn in a structured way rather than straight into an hour of randori which is the current way. I think it could be done at the club I go to, as the other white/yellow belts do more or less turn up every week.
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2011 10:08am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gosai View Post
    Thanks Judoka, that was actually really informative. D'you teach any classes out of curiosity? (Purely academic in that curiosity. It's a bit out of my price range to fly out to the UK just to train with a guy on the internet, haha.)
    I don't teach anymore since I left Uni, I occasionally take warm ups and show bits and bobs, but I don't take full sessions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ty5 View Post
    Agree with all of that Judoka_uk, not that I have experienced that kind of training as an adult beginner but it sounds like it is exactly the sort of thing myself and the other white belts at the club have been wanting.

    Better to learn in a structured way rather than straight into an hour of randori which is the current way. I think it could be done at the club I go to, as the other white/yellow belts do more or less turn up every week.
    The issue for me is what can be described as physical 'illiteracy' amongst most late adult beginners. That is to say they don't really have any of the physical tools like how to move their body, spatial awareness, coordination etc...

    Kurt Osiander talks about this in one of the 'Ask a black belt' bjj vids on YT.

    Which is interesting to me, because its having attended a few BJJ sessions which helped me formulate some of the ideas for progressive training technique breakdown and applying it to Judo.

    I speculate this maybe because BJJ is adult-centric, whereas Judo is child-centric.

    So they have better models and knowledge pools for how to teach adults whereas we have good models and knowledge pools for how to teach kids.

    Back to physical 'illiteracy', what we do with adults is akin to picking up a copy of War and Peace, giving it to someone who can't read and saying 'Ok so this little dot means the sentence has stopped, the word 'and' is a bridging word and remember words can have multiple meanings depending on context, now off you go and read this book'. This is obviously insane and yet is effectively the model we use to teach adults.

    And what's even worse is the utter paucity of resources to learn fundamental skills like; movement, positioning, spacing, off balancing etc...

    You go on Judoforum or type into google 'tai sabaki' and you get back a load of waffle that's bugger all use to you. You ask for advice about a throw and people just say 'oh you need to work on your kuzushi', which is **** all use, because you don't know how to 'work on your kuzushi' and no one will tell you how to do it.

    I know how frustrating this is, because I went through the process myself. Hence why I started blogging.
  5. BearHammer is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2011 3:32pm

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     Style: Judo, MT, KM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Judoka_UK, I follow your blog and it is helping me out tremendously. Thanks for the time your putting into it.

    I am having the same issues in my club. I was taught Osoto Gari my first day, but haven't really received any feedback on it. there are always different levels of players there. Some whites, greens, blues, browns, and blacks as well as some competitors that are practicing for competition. Since that day it has been a cornucopia of different throws and newaza techniques. I have held my own in newaza because of some past bjj exp. and some moves I picked up here and there on the forums.

    My throws are abysmal right now though. Wrestling 300lb white belts has been fun, but I feel like I'm not learning much with that type of randori. I have changed up recently and begun to challenge upper level players and it feels much better (its not just a power grunt and stiff arm fest), and I go home less worn out.

    What would you suggest a new player do when in the type of environment that others have described in this thread?
  6. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2011 4:59pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The way I see it you have 3 options.

    1. Overthrow your oppressors, cast them down and declare a dictatorship of the aged noob.

    2. Await patiently for the glorious day when my ascent to power is complete and I am crowned World King.

    3. Set yourself some goals, targets and structures for your own training. Accept that its going to be a frustrating and lengthy process and in the words of Wayama sensei 'If you train hard, you will get worse, before you get better'.

    So assuming you're like your average aged noob, you have a few key areas that you need to deal with.

    1. Your body.

    You're tired, inflexible, unfit and at a high risk of injury. To fix the last two is superficially relatively simple try and get in a run or two a week and a sensible weights session. The issues arise about how good you are at time management, are you capable of not finding time, but actually making time and continuing to make time even in the face of adversity.

    Tired-ness will be mitigated by increased exercise and a good diet. Obviously don't have to go crazy and eat cottage cheese and raw fish 8 times a day. Just cut down on the fizzy drinks, save the beers for the weekend and resist the temptation to grab fast food for lunch. Bring sandwiches or salads from home, women can be utilised to construct these.

    Flexibility is an important issue in Judo generally, but especially for the older noob. Old noobs constantly complain they can't get low enough, can't get their leg round, can't put their arm here. All it takes to fix this is 10-15 minutes of gentle stretching every morning before you get in the shower and before you go to bed.

    2. Pre/Post Training.

    If you can turn up 10-15 minutes early and stay 10-15 minutes late. If you can talk a fellow noob into this it will be much easier.

    Use this 10-15 minutes to practice your ukemi and drill your kuzushi - http://thedifficultway.blogspot.com/...g-kuzushi.html

    Again its a case of making time.

    3. During the training session.

    There's not much you can do about how the session is conducted you're a lowly noob. However, if you manage to convince enough of you of the periodisation idea, then you can come together as a unit and ask your coach about training that way. Obviously don't storm up and demand changes, be polite, be tactful etc...

    If that doesn't work or you can't find enough fellow conspirators. Then you have to utilise what time you do have.

    There will be some time of free uchikomi or nagekomi where you get to choose the techniques you practice or at least some semi-free time i.e 'ok guys now do any forward throw' etc...

    So insert your own periodisation plan.

    I suggest you pick two major techniques and two complimentary ashiwaza from these lists.

    Major throws:
    Koshi guruma
    Tsurikomi goshi
    Uki goshi
    O soto gari
    O goshi
    Seoi nage
    Tai otoshi
    Harai goshi
    Uchi mata

    Complimentary ashiwaza:
    De ashi barai
    Hiza guruma
    Sasae tsurikomi ashi
    O uchi gari
    Ko soto gari
    Ko uchi gari
    Okuri ashi barai

    I.e Tai otoshi and Uchi mata for major forward throws and O uchi gari and Ko uchi gari for complimentary ashiwaza.

    Then just drill all those techniques in isolation, then drill chaining them together. i.e Ko uchi Tai otoshi, O uchi Uchi mata, Tai otoshi - Uchi mata etc...

    Then just keep turning up, keep sticking at it and eventually things will fall into place.

    Oh and always stay faithful, never let those harlots of unorthodox and close contact gripping lure you away from the true path. They're a crutch unless you have absolutely rock solid fundamentals.
  7. The Juggernoob is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/17/2011 9:54am


     Style: 'Grapplin'

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    The way I see it you have 3 options.

    1. Overthrow your oppressors, cast them down and declare a dictatorship of the aged noob.

    2. Await patiently for the glorious day when my ascent to power is complete and I am crowned World King.

    3. Set yourself some goals, targets and structures for your own training. Accept that its going to be a frustrating and lengthy process and in the words of Wayama sensei 'If you train hard, you will get worse, before you get better'.

    So assuming you're like your average aged noob, you have a few key areas that you need to deal with.

    1. Your body.

    You're tired, inflexible, unfit and at a high risk of injury. To fix the last two is superficially relatively simple try and get in a run or two a week and a sensible weights session. The issues arise about how good you are at time management, are you capable of not finding time, but actually making time and continuing to make time even in the face of adversity.

    Tired-ness will be mitigated by increased exercise and a good diet. Obviously don't have to go crazy and eat cottage cheese and raw fish 8 times a day. Just cut down on the fizzy drinks, save the beers for the weekend and resist the temptation to grab fast food for lunch. Bring sandwiches or salads from home, women can be utilised to construct these.

    Flexibility is an important issue in Judo generally, but especially for the older noob. Old noobs constantly complain they can't get low enough, can't get their leg round, can't put their arm here. All it takes to fix this is 10-15 minutes of gentle stretching every morning before you get in the shower and before you go to bed.

    2. Pre/Post Training.

    If you can turn up 10-15 minutes early and stay 10-15 minutes late. If you can talk a fellow noob into this it will be much easier.

    Use this 10-15 minutes to practice your ukemi and drill your kuzushi - http://thedifficultway.blogspot.com/...g-kuzushi.html

    Again its a case of making time.

    3. During the training session.

    There's not much you can do about how the session is conducted you're a lowly noob. However, if you manage to convince enough of you of the periodisation idea, then you can come together as a unit and ask your coach about training that way. Obviously don't storm up and demand changes, be polite, be tactful etc...

    If that doesn't work or you can't find enough fellow conspirators. Then you have to utilise what time you do have.

    There will be some time of free uchikomi or nagekomi where you get to choose the techniques you practice or at least some semi-free time i.e 'ok guys now do any forward throw' etc...

    So insert your own periodisation plan.

    I suggest you pick two major techniques and two complimentary ashiwaza from these lists.

    Major throws:
    Koshi guruma
    Tsurikomi goshi
    Uki goshi
    O soto gari
    O goshi
    Seoi nage
    Tai otoshi
    Harai goshi
    Uchi mata

    Complimentary ashiwaza:
    De ashi barai
    Hiza guruma
    Sasae tsurikomi ashi
    O uchi gari
    Ko soto gari
    Ko uchi gari
    Okuri ashi barai

    I.e Tai otoshi and Uchi mata for major forward throws and O uchi gari and Ko uchi gari for complimentary ashiwaza.

    Then just drill all those techniques in isolation, then drill chaining them together. i.e Ko uchi – Tai otoshi, O uchi – Uchi mata, Tai otoshi - Uchi mata etc...

    Then just keep turning up, keep sticking at it and eventually things will fall into place.

    Oh and always stay faithful, never let those harlots of unorthodox and close contact gripping lure you away from the true path. They're a crutch unless you have absolutely rock solid fundamentals.
    God I wish you were my instructor. Im not a child , therefore I dont expect any actual coaching in my club. Im going in for the North-West kyu grades in October. Have I been taught the rules? Have I done any tachi-waza into ne-waza? Have I even had any advice on tactics that might suit me?.....Have I ****.
  8. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/17/2011 10:21am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Juggernoob View Post
    Im not a child , therefore I dont expect any actual coaching in my club.
    I assume some kind of currency is exchanged, or given that you're in the North maybe a ferret or a timeshare in a flat cap, in order for you to train there?

    Do you not feel that entitles you to getting taught stuff and prepared for comps properly? I means its not BJJ where you fork over the price of a Gucci handbag every month for the privilege of licking your instructors shoe.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Juggernoob View Post
    Im going in for the North-West kyu grades in October.
    This one?
    http://www.nwa.judouk.org/docs/20111023-2.pdf

    Looks like a very sensible grade division; 6-4th, 3rd-2nd and 1st.

    What grade are you and how long have you been practicing?

    Oh and watch out for the bring your own blue and white belt bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Juggernoob View Post
    Have I been taught the rules?
    They're all here

    Although really what you need to know is what not to do, which is here.

    Ask your coach or one of the dan grades to show you the rei procedure as the number one things noobs get wrong in their first comp is that. They get all psyched up on the sidelines come on, ballsy up the rei and then the ref will wave his hand at you.

    You wont understand what's going on, he'll wave his hand at you again and eventually will tell you to rei again. If you literally don't know what to do he will walk you through it.

    By which time all your mental prep is shot and you get chucked.

    How many others from your club are going? Try and band together and ask your coach for help on the rules and doing the rei procedure.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Juggernoob View Post
    Have I done any tachi-waza into ne-waza?
    Most clubs, especially recreational clubs, don't train the transition, sad but true.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Juggernoob View Post
    Have I even had any advice on tactics that might suit me?.....Have I ****
    Get your grip, do your Judo, throw them for ippon.

    Any other game plan than that at kyu grade level is just a gimmick.
  9. The Juggernoob is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/17/2011 10:44am


     Style: 'Grapplin'

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I assume some kind of currency is exchanged, or given that you're in the North maybe a ferret or a timeshare in a flat cap, in order for you to train there?
    I've missed you , you damned southern pansy. Yes it is indeed, its my first comp. My "child" comment was more to do with the quite obvious fixation upon coaching the kiddies to greatness only to watch them jack it in to go play football.

    I've been teaching myself the intricacies of the BJA comp rules, I just expected that with the interclub bitching that goes on, all the instructors would want their students at least fluent in the etiquette.

    Still a lowly 6th im afraid, and the only 100+ entry from our club, so im aware of the sodomy that is likely to take place, and I plan to lube accordingly.

    Im very aware of how "in for the long haul" Judo is, and my commitment to it is no issue. But the whole "you're going to be really **** for ages, and we're not going to be particuluarly helpful about it" attitude is starting to grate, not enough to put me off, but enough to make me mildly pissed about it.

    Concerning the throwing for ippon at kyu idea. I was really banking on being able to rescue my shoddy throws with my passable ground game?
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