Teaching rank in Judo?

**watchman** · Posted On: 4/11/2013 11:47pm

One thing that's come up lately in my dojo is the issue of who is a "sensei." Some people say "teaching rank" (the only "senseis" in the club) is fifth dan and above. Others say it is third dan and above.

I usually refer to anyone I know is third dan and above, or anyone with a black belt I don't know, as "sensei [first name]." But that's just been my practice, I could be completely out of line.

To avoid the waters being muddied, the bylaws of the dojo say nothing on the point of "teaching rank." The question would be answered exclusively via what the Kodokan gives as guidance or what is generally accepted.

**Ming Loyalist** · Posted On: 4/12/2013 8:16am

in *japan* no one under 5th dan is an instructor, but that doesn't carry over to other countries.

your dojo will have its own customs and the ones followed elsewhere are not really relevant.

in *my* dojo, the 8th dan sensei is referred to as sensei, and his 5th dan son is referred to as sensei when he is leading class, but not otherwise. no other black belts are called sensei regardless of rank, but that's just *my* dojo. you have to find out what is correct in yours. i would ask the head sensei.

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 4/12/2013 9:46am

Calling someone sensei is a show of great respect given to a worthy teacher, so anyone claiming the title as their own (e.g. "call me sensei, I'm teaching today") just needs a solid punch in the face and be sent to the back of the line, in my humble opinion.

The number of folks who self-describe as "sifu" or "sensei" makes me sick. It is supposed to be earned through hard work and respect, not something you choose for yourself. So much bullshido out there today came about because it is trivial to call yourself "master".

**NeilG** · Posted On: 4/12/2013 10:38am

It really just comes down to whatever is the custom at your dojo. This should be set by your dojo's head instructor. Generally speaking, sensei is a term that indicates a relationship between you and someone else. So it can happen that a dojo has an instructor who is shodan, and he may well be rightly called sensei by his students. If he visits some other dojo they wouldn't call him sensei and he would be a tool to demand it. OTOH a lot of people who are in an instructional position with a lower rank are uncomfortable with being called sensei and keep things less formal.

At some point if the rank is high enough people just start calling you sensei in general, the idea is even if you don't have a personal relationship with that person he is senior enough that he is considered a teacher of everybody. Not just martial arts, either. In Japan university profs are called sensei, etc.

In the judo dojo as a shodan I am just Neil. Two of our instructors are the same rank as me but as they take an active role in teaching they get called sensei occasionally, but more typically just by first name. Generally in our province as soon as someone hits shodan people start throwing the sensei term around but I'm not comfortable with that. If someone calls me sensei I ask them to just call me Neil.

In the kendo dojo most people also just call me Neil but I also get sensei. If I am in a formal setting like a seminar or grading it is consistently sensei. It took me a long time to get comfortable with that title, and pretty much all my friends in my position feel the same way. No Japanese person I know would insist on being called sensei or any other title, although they may take offense if you do not address them correctly. Better to err on the safe side and address any senior person more formally to start. They'll let you know if they prefer it informal.

**BKR** · Posted On: 4/12/2013 2:41pm

Ask the guy/gal who runs the dojo or is considered the head instructor what the custom is there. In our dojo, the little kids all me by my first name or sensei, whatever they like. My own black belt students call me "Ben". The other black belt calls me "sensei", despite my telling him to call me "Ben". But my personal students (shodan) refer to me as their sensei to others.

I think westerners get a lot more hung up on the sensei thing. Some seem to relish calling another person "sensei". Especially in Aikido dojo, sheesh...

Being sensei isn't an honor, it's a very big responsibility when it is approached in the sense of the original meaning of the word. So all you sensei freaks out there chill out and follow the custom of your own dojo.

Ben

**NeilG** · Posted On: 4/12/2013 2:48pm

Rank is a curse.

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 4/12/2013 3:43pm

Originally Posted by NeilG

Rank is a curse.

Pushups.

**BKR** · Posted On: 4/12/2013 4:04pm

Originally Posted by NeilG

Rank is a curse.

In some ways, I agree. I think maybe more in Kendo than Judo? I guess it's more how people react to the whole "rank" thing that is the issue. And in that issue it's possible to actually learn something.

**NeilG** · Posted On: 4/12/2013 4:10pm

Originally Posted by BKR

In some ways, I agree. I think maybe more in Kendo than Judo? I guess it's more how people react to the whole "rank" thing that is the issue. And in that issue it's possible to actually learn something.

I just meant that the higher up the food chain you go, the more responsibility you have. It's not all bad of course. However, I am the guy that does the bulk of the organizing for our club. I give up a majority of my class time to teaching. At seminars when I would love to line up to play the visiting sensei, I have to be on the sensei side with a line of people waiting to play me. I was dumb enough to volunteer for the national BOD on top of that so I guess I get what I deserve.

Judo is better, I get to be pretty much pure student.

**BKR** · Posted On: 4/12/2013 6:09pm

Originally Posted by NeilG

I just meant that the higher up the food chain you go, the more responsibility you have. It's not all bad of course. However, I am the guy that does the bulk of the organizing for our club. I give up a majority of my class time to teaching. At seminars when I would love to line up to play the visiting sensei, I have to be on the sensei side with a line of people waiting to play me. I was dumb enough to volunteer for the national BOD on top of that so I guess I get what I deserve.

Judo is better, I get to be pretty much pure student.

I get it. The same thing happened to me in Judo. More admin, more teaching, and less time to actually learn/develop my own Judo. It's stupid that a sandan is high enough rank to get caught up in that stuff.